LBZ: Rods So many choices

[othrgrl]

Alright, we have decided to make some rods..

I need to know a few more things however.

Max boost. 100+ PSI

Max Trq 1700+ ft lbs

Max RPM 6000

Max piston weight. 1300 (from what Guy said)

I may have more questions however at least the boss is interested, I also showed him Pat's creation Casper..:thumb:

John

Answers in Blue

 

[John Noonan]

Answers in Blue

100 pounds of boost..?

6K rpm's...


Hmmm

 

[paint94979]

100 pounds of boost..?

6K rpm's...


Hmmm

better to overbuild then underbuild?

 

[duratothemax]

better to overbuild then underbuild?

x1,000,000

sorry, but you wont find many people willing to test your rods considering:

a) all of the currently available rods are 100% proven and have an EXCELLENT track record holding everything people throw at them

b) the crappy track record that other "no-name" aftermarket dmax rods have



If you want to sell them like hot cakes, first run them in your own truck without failure at 1,000rwhp for 50,000+ miles, and price them for less than 2,500 dollars.

ben

 

[TrentNell]

x1,000,000

sorry, but you wont find many people willing to test your rods considering:

a) all of the currently available rods are 100% proven and have an EXCELLENT track record holding everything people throw at them

b) the crappy track record that other "no-name" aftermarket dmax rods have



If you want to sell them like hot cakes, first run them in your own truck without failure at 1,000rwhp for 50,000+ miles, and price them for less than 2,500 dollars.

ben

I know where you are coming from Ben , given your past experience i dont blaim you . but to put Johns project in the same catagory as the other isnt quite far , after all an actual engineer that works for an actual rod builder is going to be in another league for the product produced .

If it wasnt for the time frame I would try a set but they would have to be free or close to it and a garenteed re-imbursment for damage done if a failure happend due to a faulty rod . No insult to you Ben but to test a engine product that has never been ran before( unless i thought it up or requested it ) in any other scenerio is out of the question for me .

 

[TrentNell]

John i know its early and only being proposed , but what is your goal from a marketing stance ? Are you aiming for a stronger rod ? A lighter Rod ? or a cheaper Rod ? Simply what will make your Rod a better choice than what is currently availible ?

 

[John Noonan]

better to overbuild then underbuild?

Great point however if 90-95% of the potential users are needing a rod for 60-80 pounds of boost then that is a better market for a rod manufacturer to go in to, I have received so many PM's from potential customers asking either for a deal on the rods or wanting them as other manufacturers are seemingly wanting an arm and a leg for them.

We already make rods for many other applications however since I have a truck (DMAX) and have been fortunate to receive help from a a few members here regarding our problems I saw the need for a rod manufacturer to make a great part at a good price however since I am not a paying site sponsor I have not marketed our services here.

I am not even sure who owns the site at this time however I will not market parts for sale until I am either 100% sure they are right and if they are reasonably priced.

Until the site admins mention to me who they are or send me info on site advertising we will not further mention our company name.

I will say that the Carrillo rods for the Suzuki Hayabusa are weighing in at 353 grams with a 5/16" bolt and cost over $1,000.00 from Carrillo for a four piece set.

The rods we well are 25 grams lighter than stock and a tick heavier than Carrillos however we use a tapered blade design along with 3/8" ARP L19 premium rod bolt fasteners.

Our four cylinder set retails for $860.00 per set.

John

 

[John Noonan]

I know where you are coming from Ben , given your past experience i dont blaim you . but to put Johns project in the same catagory as the other isnt quite far , after all an actual engineer that works for an actual rod builder is going to be in another league for the product produced .

If it wasnt for the time frame I would try a set but they would have to be free or close to it and a garenteed re-imbursment for damage done if a failure happend due to a faulty rod . No insult to you Ben but to test a engine product that has never been ran before( unless i thought it up or requested it ) in any other scenerio is out of the question for me .

Stronger and less expensive, Dover corp owns Wiseco and JE, Pankl owns CP and Carrillo, I know that we (our company) do not have the same cost so we can make a better product that takes longer to machine however we are in to quality and not quantity.

John

 

[paint94979]

Stronger and less expensive, Dover corp owns Wiseco and JE, Pankl owns CP and Carrillo, I know that we (our company) do not have the same cost so we can make a better product that takes longer to machine however we are in to quality and not quantity.

John

i like that John

 

[McRat]

Great point however if 90-95% of the potential users are needing a rod for 60-80 pounds of boost then that is a better market for a rod manufacturer to go in to, I have received so many PM's from potential customers asking either for a deal on the rods or wanting them as other manufacturers are seemingly wanting an arm and a leg for them.

We already make rods for many other applications however since I have a truck (DMAX) and have been fortunate to receive help from a a few members here regarding our problems I saw the need for a rod manufacturer to make a great part at a good price however since I am not a paying site sponsor I have not marketed our services here.

I am not even sure who owns the site at this time however I will not market parts for sale until I am either 100% sure they are right and if they are reasonably priced.

Until the site admins mention to me who they are or send me info on site advertising we will not further mention our company name.

I will say that the Carrillo rods for the Suzuki Hayabusa are weighing in at 353 grams with a 5/16" bolt and cost over $1,000.00 from Carrillo for a four piece set.

The rods we well are 25 grams lighter than stock and a tick heavier than Carrillos however we use a tapered blade design along with 3/8" ARP L19 premium rod bolt fasteners.

Our four cylinder set retails for $860.00 per set.

John

John,

Kat, Rob, and I own this site. It started out as a customer service board for McRat Racing, then later we made it public. Kat is my wife, and Rob is our web tech. I met Rob back when we were racing LS1 Camaros together 10 years ago. Kat and I decided that having a non-Duramax hotrodder as an admin will help us see the big picture, and Rob is a very level headed guy.

If the rod is as strong as the Crower, it will be fine. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has bent one. I tried pretty hard at Bonneville '08, but not even sticking them through the block had much of an effect.

Obviously there have been some made that weren't any stronger than the stock rods, and many are scared to death that could happen again.

In order for folk to sell stuff on this board we ask that they list as sponsor, which is $500/yr. We do make exceptions, but if a sponsor here complains (none have so far) we will ask you to please refrain from more than a product announcement.

Our goal is to have the best information on what is out there for our trucks, but at the same time respect those who have supported the board. It's a balancing act that's done on a case-by-case basis, and so far it has worked well. We have very few "sponsor wars" compared to other hotrod sites.

 

[othrgrl]

Great point however if 90-95% of the potential users are needing a rod for 60-80 pounds of boost

John, in my opinion with the relatively small market for aftermarket duramax rods I would not limit yourself in any way. Most guys that do build a motor want to do it once and be done - so if they know that Carillos have survived at over 100 PSI and that yours were only designed to survive at 80 PSI they are more than likely going to go with the Carillos.

In reality engine builds range from 15:1 compression ratio up to 18:1 compression; 40 PSI is the bare minumum most built motors will see, 60ish is typical, and 100+ isn't unheard of; and most importantly many guys build their motor and start at 700hp and are quickly looking for more power - some turn to nitrous, some to a bigger single turbo, and some to a huge turbo to add to the one they were making 700hp with in a compound setup - normally tearing the motor down for better rods is not part of the plan.

If you build them as strong as or stronger and as light or lighter than the current offerings, and market them at a better price, then you should have a good chance of selling them.

 

[duratothemax]

Great point however if 90-95% of the potential users are needing a rod for 60-80 pounds of boost then that is a better market for a rod manufacturer to go in to, I have received so many PM's from potential customers asking either for a deal on the rods or wanting them as other manufacturers are seemingly wanting an arm and a leg for them.

why are you basing strength of the rods around how many pounds of boost someone will run? This isnt a gas engine...!!! How strong you are making the rods should not be determined by how much boost someone is gonna run. Boost isnt what bends rods in diesel engines. With the right tuning and enogh fuel you can bend stock rods at 30psi. Or not bend them at 60psi.

 

[IdahoRob]

FYI, there are some running over 100 pounds of boost now even with free flowing heads.

 

[duratothemax]

I know where you are coming from Ben , given your past experience i dont blaim you . but to put Johns project in the same catagory as the other isnt quite far , after all an actual engineer that works for an actual rod builder is going to be in another league for the product produced .

until John's rods survive for thousands of miles at close to 1000rwhp, im sorry, but in my book they are in the exact same category as the rods that were in my truck. Guilty until proven innocent.

If it wasnt for the time frame I would try a set but they would have to be free or close to it and a garenteed re-imbursment for damage done if a failure happend due to a faulty rod . .

I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt anyone setting out to make/invent a new set of dmax rods will agree to that wager.

No insult to you Ben but to test a engine product that has never been ran before( unless i thought it up or requested it ) in any other scenerio is out of the question for me .

Mine were tested in old nicky's truck to 750rwhp (or so he told me). I wasnt the first person testing those pieces of crap, so I felt confident in them. If I was the very first person running them, I wouldnt have bought them.

ben

 

[John Noonan]

Dustin,

Thank you for the information however stronger/ lighter and better are sometimes hard to package together.


DTTM, pounds of boost are needed to assist with the design parameters..even though the rod at both ends (BDC and TDC) are cushioned in a boosted engine several factors must be considered and proper information must be input, if not the F.E.A. software will give out incorrect design results.


Pat,

Thank you for the information, I thought you guys had something to do with this site..:rofl:

Regarding becoming a sponsor as I mentioned in a previous post here (somewhere on this site) if we started making the rods then we would simply offer them to the current site sponsors/advertisers as my company does not compete with our customers and we try to stay distributor direct only.

So it would most likely not benefit us directly to advertise here to such a narrowed customer base for only one product offering however we can continue to spend money with the advertisers/sponsors for parts and service for our Duramax.

And parts we have bought for the truck have been bought from sellers here other than the tuner that we bought before I was aware of this site.

There is a great wealth of information here and I hope to one day be as fast and Duramax aware as most of you..:thumb:

Pat thanks again for hooking me up at El Mo...

 

[duratothemax]

DTTM, pounds of boost are needed to assist with the design parameters..even though the rod at both ends (BDC and TDC) are cushioned in a boosted engine

Again, get out of the gas engine mindset....arrgh. A diesel will never see vacuum! Its always under at least 14.7psi of "boost".

Basically what you are thinking/saying here is that a big block gasser rod design that is strong enough for "30psi", would survive in a dmax engine at 30psi???? FAT CHANCE!!!!!

several factors must be considered and proper information must be input, if not the F.E.A. software will give out incorrect design results.

yes...I realize that...but on a diesel you CANT base the strength of/design of the rod around "how much boost are you gonna run".

The amount of fuel to air in a diesel ISNT constant! In a gas engine, to maintain stoich at X boost, you know/can calculate exactly how much fuel is going in, and therefore get a VERY good idea how much stress/cylinder pressure the rod is going to see.

In a diesel, its all a crapshoot because there are SOOOOO many more variables. All im saying is, the fact that you are simply asking "well how much boost are you guys gonna run" doesnt give me a lot of confidence in your design.

Timing at various rpm's, fuel, injectors, cylinder pressure, CR, pilot injection timing, how many injection events, are all much more important in determining the stress on a diesel rod/how strong it needs to be. Boost is the least important thing to consider in my own dumb opinion, because it really doesnt mean anything in a diesel, as far as things that can affect cylinder pressure.

Like I said. You can bend stock rods easily at 25psi with enough fuel/power/timing. Then you can also run 60psi with different fuel/timing curves/injection events etc and not have any problems with a stock rod. Boost doesnt mean anything.

JMO.

ben

 

[Slick]

I'm def. no expert, but looks to me like cylinder pressure would be the only thing that matters, as far as whether they will bend or not...

 

[John Noonan]

Ben,

Seeing that I am rather new to this forum I can see you have had a bad experience with an engine build.

I will stick to the F.E.A. programs and other design software that is used in all forms of top motor sports design, when a mechanical Engineer that has designed pistons for Formula 1 asks for information I will give it to him.



Thank you for your input.

John

 

[othrgrl]

John,

Look up "fingers" on this forum. He has cylinder pressure monitoring hardware and can probably give you some very good info. Because as Ben said boost isn't a good indicator of what cylinder pressures will be on a diesel. Your F.E.A programs are more than likely set up to calculate cylinder pressure based on stoichiometric air:fuel mixtures for gasoline, alcohol, and top fuel - so with inputs of boost and compression ratio they can do that. On a diesel there are alot more variables and boost is much less of a factor.

 

[Fingers]

Hi John,

Just found this thread. Maybe I can help.

Some of what Ben has said is true, but not in a black and white "gasser does not apply to diesel" sort of way. For instance, the diesel ignition "Event" is much softer and broader than the gas version. The result being ignition start timing that borders on the insane.

Pressure wise, I have seen a huge range. Right now it is the pistons, not the rods that are the limiting factor. That being said, I would think a good FEA would be able to trim significant weight off the rod and provide additional dampening of the high stresses at TDC and BDC.

For reference, you can expect a high performance Dmax engine to sneak up on 4500 PSI peak at ~10* ATDC. Depending on tuning. I have not logged any ugly boost (100 PSI) engines yet, but have discovered the effective boost to the chamber does not track well to the manifold pressure as you push past 40 PSI. I am not sure why. Head design, valve float, efficiencies, who knows. Also keep in mind that these engines also don't see that kind of boost till 2800 RPM or much higher.

Again, if I can be of any help.