LBZ: Rods So many choices

[LBZ]

Great point however if 90-95% of the potential users are needing a rod for 60-80 pounds of boost then that is a better market for a rod manufacturer to go in to, I have received so many PM's from potential customers asking either for a deal on the rods or wanting them as other manufacturers are seemingly wanting an arm and a leg for them.

John

First off, I'm glad you guys are looking into building rods. :thumb:

The numbers given by othrgrl are accurate in my opinion for people looking to go with 700+ HP. Also the 90% of the "potential users" out there running in the 40 - 80psi boost range also need the same rods as the guys running 100psi +. Boost is almost irrelevant in the diesel application as far as rods are concerned. Cylinder pressure and torque are much larger factors to consider as well as rpm.

For those staying under the 700hp bar, they are currently not in the market for performance rods due to cost reasons. Most of those folk are your Daily Driver/Weekend Racer types. These are the guys that turn it up for a few passes a couple times a year and try to keep it in the "safe zone" the rest of the time. Or the ones that tow heavy loads quite often. Those people currently are more likely to run a set of cut/coated stock LLY pistons with LBZ/LMM stock rods as they have been capable of holding up to 650hp without failing and are much cheaper than the current aftermarket options out there and readily available. But, these guys are also pushing the envelope as far as what the stock rods can hold, and eventually, many will fail.

If you do plan to build rods, then I would suggest building some that are equivalent to, if not exceeding what is already currently on the market. Otherwise, there isn't much point unless they are $1000 cheaper because I believe most folk will just go with the known proven performers.

Something to think about:The average truck running in the low 11's and less in the 1/4 mile are running around 750+ HP and many pushing close to 900. Many are spinning up to 4000rpm+ with torque in the 1500+/- ftlbs range. These are REAL numbers.

Check out the forums and look at the time slips and drag racing/dyno/sled pulling threads-the number of people that fall in this category is quite large and the numbers are increasing steadily!! With these stats, I think you should be able to quickly make up your mind as to which part of the market to target!

 

[duratothemax]

If you do plan to build rods, then I would suggest building some that are equivalent to, if not exceeding what is already currently on the market. Otherwise, there isn't much point unless they are $1000 cheaper because I believe most folk will just go with the known proven performers.

x2!!!

excellent point. But even if John does make "equivalent" rods for 1000 dollars cheaper, you wonder what else you are sacrificing for 1000 dollars.

That would mean dmax rods capable of holding 1500+hp and 2000+ ft lbs of torque and 5000rpm are only 1500 dollars...wheres the catch...you cant get something for nothing.

No offence to any of the parties involved in making the rods, but to everyone else in this thread, I highly doubt we will see these "alternative" rods come to fruition. They are going to be all talked up and gung ho, then realize that hey, maybe theres a reason crowers cost 2500 dollars...wow I didnt realize what was involved in making diesel rods...I thought because I was the cats azz at making gasser rods that diesel rods would be a blindfolded walk in the park, hmm maybe this wasnt such an easy/good endeavor to take on as I initially thought.........

you guys all know why im being pessimistic about this, but I really wouldnt hold out/put off your engine builds waiting for these rods.

ben

 

[John Noonan]

Ben,

I know for certain more than a sample set of rods will be made and most likely given away for testing (not to Ben however)

I have no doubt the final product will work great.

I am certain they will not be $1,000 cheaper per set.

I know that we make a stronger rod for a particular application I am very familiar with for a few hundred dollars less on a four cylinder application, on an eight cylinder the savings would double however as I mentioned the forging is larger than what we make at this time so the savings may not be as great.

Ben I have already told numerous people to continue their build plans as making the Duramax rods is down on our priority list. Ben if you are so certain the rods would fail or never come to fruition then why do you continue to bite at my heels?

You are a better expert on bad rods, I have great experience on good rods.

In another market (drag racing) I saw a need for a better rod and piston combination as the current pistons were cracking and the rod bolts were breaking or the rods were twisting. We designed up a set of pistons and after making a valve pocket tweak (made them deeper) we went on to create a piston that did not crack, we made a set of rods for testing last year and when they were delivered to the show for samples I saw immediately the bolt structure area was not made to print so I called Germany and told them.

The next set of samples were made and I sent out a set to a racer friend who has the same engine in his LSR car, the rods were perfect other than being a bit heavier than I wanted however he went on to become one of two people to gain entry in to the El Mirage 200mph club this year in his car and also gained entry in to the Bonneville 200mph club this year as well.

The rods looked great even after being tortured under a bad tune up and a shifting problem (later fixed) and now we have sold nearly twenty sets and have several on back order for our few US and Canadian distributors. This all started because all I kept hearing was how expensive the rods are from brand "p" or "c" and they they are failing, now we have a better stronger part that also costs about $200.00 less per four cylinder set.




John

PS. Fingers and the other members that offer positive and constructive criticism rather than just criticism I thank you. :thumb:

J

 

[othrgrl]

x2!!!

excellent point. But even if John does make "equivalent" rods for 1000 dollars cheaper, you wonder what else you are sacrificing for 1000 dollars.

That would mean dmax rods capable of holding 1500+hp and 2000+ ft lbs of torque and 5000rpm are only 1500 dollars...wheres the catch...you cant get something for nothing.

No offence to any of the parties involved in making the rods, but to everyone else in this thread, I highly doubt we will see these "alternative" rods come to fruition. They are going to be all talked up and gung ho, then realize that hey, maybe theres a reason crowers cost 2500 dollars...wow I didnt realize what was involved in making diesel rods...I thought because I was the cats azz at making gasser rods that diesel rods would be a blindfolded walk in the park, hmm maybe this wasnt such an easy/good endeavor to take on as I initially thought.........

you guys all know why im being pessimistic about this, but I really wouldnt hold out/put off your engine builds waiting for these rods.

ben

Ben, LBZ was saying that if you are gonna go after the "tweener" market (the guys looking to stay under 800hp that don't need rods as strong as those currently available) there needs to be a very significant savings. I would agree that someone shouldn't hold off a build to wait for these rods, but mostly because I think the proper testing, which I'm sure they will be put through, will take a while. Remember Ben you got rods from an individual who had never built rods for ANYTHING. The Howard's X-beam rods are a good example of rods that came into the market later than Crower and Carillo, yet haven't had problems and sell very well. They are priced right around the others and have the added feature of an oil supply for the wrist pin. Howards, Carillo, Crower, and R&R are all high performance rod companies that make rods for gas engines and used what they know to build high performance diesel rods. Cunningham is well known for rods in diesel pulling tractors yet they are about the least common rods for the Duramax, although I know a few people with them without problems.

 

[Bako_Dmax]

Ben, LBZ was saying that if you are gonna go after the "tweener" market (the guys looking to stay under 800hp that don't need rods as strong as those currently available) there needs to be a very significant savings. I would agree that someone shouldn't hold off a build to wait for these rods, but mostly because I think the proper testing, which I'm sure they will be put through, will take a while. Remember Ben you got rods from an individual who had never built rods for ANYTHING. The Howard's X-beam rods are a good example of rods that came into the market later than Crower and Carillo, yet haven't had problems and sell very well. They are priced right around the others and have the added feature of an oil supply for the wrist pin. Howards, Carillo, Crower, and R&R are all high performance rod companies that make rods for gas engines and used what they know to build high performance diesel rods. Cunningham is well known for rods in diesel pulling tractors yet they are about the least common rods for the Duramax, although I know a few people with them without problems.

Thats a very good point.

I hope this pans out and we dmax guys will have more options for strong reliable rods.

 

[Drholliday]

I would be interested in testing these rods in my planned build, but I doubt they will be ready by January or February. (when I plan on building it) What I'm planning to build would be a pretty good test truck IMO.

I would love to see a cheaper option for a strong rod for the Duramax community and would be willing to test the rods to help reach that goal. Fact is you have to pay to play and if you can wind up paying less in the future to play with the big boys it would be worth it to further the diesel hot rod community.

 

[TheBac]

Just my .02

I agree completely with LBZ's opinion, and would add that there is a significantly large number of people that have pushed the stock engine setup to its out-and-out maximum. You can now push 570rwhp/1200ftlbs on a stock turbo/stock engine with all the advances in tuning and bolt-on parts. This was totally unheard of just 2 years ago. BUT, thats at or past the limits of the stock rods. We can use LBZ rods, but we're still only gaining a 20% better cushion. We could really use something better than that, where 600rwhp isnt going to be a cause for worry.
These people are the "ordinary" guys that arent planning on shelling out big $$ for aftermarket turbos, dual fuelers, or twins. This is because they cant afford the initial (and most important) cost of building the bottom end, due to the extreme cost of aftermarket rods and pistons. But that doesnt mean that they arent going to push the setup they have, and push comes to breakage eventually.

The rods that are available now have the "extreme" market covered, but are serious overkill for the "stock" crowd. If you could make a rod that was good UP TO 800rwhp, and make them for <=$1000, I think you'd have something there.

 

[LBZ]

John Noonan, I will be completing a build in the next 6 months or so and I am more than willing to try a set of your rods. I only plan to run around the 650hp mark or maybe a little more as it is going in my daily driver, but to get them out on the market, and get the word out, I am willing to give yours a shot.

If you don't mind, please PM me your company info, I am interested in what you guys do and have to offer.

 

[LBZ]

x2!!!

excellent point. But even if John does make "equivalent" rods for 1000 dollars cheaper, you wonder what else you are sacrificing for 1000 dollars.

That would mean dmax rods capable of holding 1500+hp and 2000+ ft lbs of torque and 5000rpm are only 1500 dollars...wheres the catch...you cant get something for nothing.

No offence to any of the parties involved in making the rods, but to everyone else in this thread, I highly doubt we will see these "alternative" rods come to fruition. They are going to be all talked up and gung ho, then realize that hey, maybe theres a reason crowers cost 2500 dollars...wow I didnt realize what was involved in making diesel rods...I thought because I was the cats azz at making gasser rods that diesel rods would be a blindfolded walk in the park, hmm maybe this wasnt such an easy/good endeavor to take on as I initially thought.........

you guys all know why im being pessimistic about this, but I really wouldnt hold out/put off your engine builds waiting for these rods.

ben

Ben, I think there may be a savings just because of what John said earlier-they will not be building rods in the production quantities of the competitiors or as quickly. What I get from this statement is that a longer time frame to build fewer but of better quality is what he is shooting for and this will hopefully result in a lower retail price compared to the other options available.

And your right, they may be surprised in what actually goes into building a diesel rod when compared to a gasser, but a good rod building company should be able to work around this-or their rods will suffer the same fate as your other "built" rods did!

 

[othrgrl]

Just my .02

I agree completely with LBZ's opinion, and would add that there is a significantly large number of people that have pushed the stock engine setup to its out-and-out maximum. You can now push 570rwhp/1200ftlbs on a stock turbo/stock engine with all the advances in tuning and bolt-on parts. This was totally unheard of just 2 years ago. BUT, thats at or past the limits of the stock rods. We can use LBZ rods, but we're still only gaining a 20% better cushion. We could really use something better than that, where 600rwhp isnt going to be a cause for worry.
These people are the "ordinary" guys that arent planning on shelling out big $$ for aftermarket turbos, dual fuelers, or twins. This is because they cant afford the initial (and most important) cost of building the bottom end, due to the extreme cost of aftermarket rods and pistons. But that doesnt mean that they arent going to push the setup they have, and push comes to breakage eventually.

The rods that are available now have the "extreme" market covered, but are serious overkill for the "stock" crowd. If you could make a rod that was good UP TO 800rwhp, and make them for <=$1000, I think you'd have something there.

Tom, sorry to burst your bubble but you aren't going to see a set of rods for the Duramax that are any better than stock for anywhere near $1000, I would be more than willing to bet that a set of stock rods cost more than that.

The current rods don't necessarily have the extreme market covered, and many guys go from mild to extreme with the swap or addition of a turbo or addition of a bottle anyway. If they could be made lighter, as strong or stronger, and any cheaper they would definitely earn their place quickly. Overbuilding a motor is never a bad thing, why ask for rods that have known limits lower than what is currently available.

 

[Noreaster]

Tom, sorry to burst your bubble but you aren't going to see a set of rods for the Duramax that are any better than stock for anywhere near $1000, I would be more than willing to bet that a set of stock rods cost more than that.

Gmpartsdirect.com lists a set of LBZ rods for $1500

 

[IdahoRob]

I would also be hesitant to put a HP limited rod in my street truck. As everyone knows, it's hard to put a cap on raising HP when you have a built engine. I.E. Full weight truck runs a 12.000, you can smell the 11 sec time slip, just a tuning tweak away from heartache. In the over all cost of a build, rod cost, is not that bad.

I'm all for good parts that are cheaper, but feel that a rod with lower HP limits than current one's would be a marketing mistake.

LBZ rods seem to hold up very well at the 650-700HP range with a decent set-up.

 

[John Noonan]

Great information

Great informative thread going on here. :thumb:

As far as making rods we will make them with three major considerations:

1. Overall strength, I want to be able to have the rods praised about as being the strongest rod available period.

2. Machining/quality, We will make sure no short-cuts are taken in the manufacturing process regarding materials and manufacturing processes.

3. Availability/cost, We want the rods to be available to the consumer at a fair cost, As mentioned before a rod we make for another application is $ 200.00 less per set of four rods because we set our prices based on our cost and not the "market pricing" like some other companies. This is not to say our rods will cost less than others (it is a goal however) as we need to make a 100 % dedicated forging for this new rod.

At this time I do not have weights of complete piston assemblies from the LB7, LLY etc in stock form.

Who has the weights of the Mahle pistons or other after market piston assemblies? The weight needs to be complete with the pin, rings, and clips.

Is anyone experimenting with a longer rod than stock? (no pun intended)

John

 

[McRat]

I had posted the OEM weights somewhere, but not the forged piston weights. IIRC, they are very similiar.

I don't see a need for longer than stock rods unless somebody wants to run a destroked engine. Unlike LSR competition, normal diesel racing is not displacement based, so destroking would be counterproductive. Whatever minor gains could be had running a longer rod would be offset by lesser strength (we bend rods at the beam) increased weight, and machining necessary to clearance them. The bottom end is very tight in a Dmax.

 

[McRat]

http://www.duramaxdiesels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=627

Guess I didn't weigh the rings. I'm not sure forged pistons were readily available when that thread was started.

 

[Utahski]

Great informative thread going on here. :thumb:

As far as making rods we will make them with three major considerations:

1. Overall strength, I want to be able to have the rods praised about as being the strongest rod available period.

2. Machining/quality, We will make sure no short-cuts are taken in the manufacturing process regarding materials and manufacturing processes.

3. Availability/cost, We want the rods to be available to the consumer at a fair cost, As mentioned before a rod we make for another application is $ 200.00 less per set of four rods because we set our prices based on our cost and not the "market pricing" like some other companies. This is not to say our rods will cost less than others (it is a goal however) as we need to make a 100 % dedicated forging for this new rod.

At this time I do not have weights of complete piston assemblies from the LB7, LLY etc in stock form.

Who has the weights of the Mahle pistons or other after market piston assemblies? The weight needs to be complete with the pin, rings, and clips.

Is anyone experimenting with a longer rod than stock? (no pun intended)

John

Aftermarket rods from the major suppliers are well made and very strong. The people who make them know what they're doing, and they're not getting rich off those things. I don't think your company knows anything those people don't know about making a diesel connecting rod. So instead of all this hype about what you're gonna do - maybe - but haven't yet started and probably won't......just do it. If rods actually do ever get built, test the hell out 'em, make sure they're as good as anyone else's, then tell people. Until that happens it's all just talk.

 

[Darius6t9]

Aftermarket rods from the major suppliers are well made and very strong. The people who make them know what they're doing, and they're not getting rich off those things. I don't think your company knows anything those people don't know about making a diesel connecting rod. So instead of all this hype about what you're gonna do - maybe - but haven't yet started and probably won't......just do it. If rods actually do ever get built, test the hell out 'em, make sure they're as good as anyone else's, then tell people. Until that happens it's all just talk.

Dude. That's being a bit harsh don't ya think. He is trying to get information on what he needs to accomplish his task. If he can get some info like piston weights, desired RPM's, and horsepower limits, even if it has nothing to do with whatever. If he can get that info from experienced professionals. Then that is less R & D that they have to pay for which means less cost for them. And very well might mean less cost to the consumer. Giving him the info he needs now also means getting it done quicker. They won't have to go out and buy the parts and test the hell out of them to find their limit. It's already been done by those that race here. Even if none of this comes to fruition, it is still good info for a later date when someone does decide to try it. And if nothing else, the companies that already make them can find where their weak spots are and fix them in later revisions.

 

[SIKDMAX]

^^^same word I thought of when I read the post, harsh.

Look guys.... we are presented here with the oppurtunity to work side by side with (presumably) the owner of a rod manufacturing facility who knows what they are doing.

They are coming to u for input as to what they can do to accomodate us, our needs, and our wants. THEY ARE ASKING US WHAT WE WANT! WE HAVE INPUT!

How often does something like this happen? I think all the bashing and negativity is ridiculous, and I think some people in the thread need to remove themselves from it so the rest of the Duramax Community can try and help create the best rod possible for our engines.

John, Id be happy to sell your rods if/when the time comes. Ill be in touch.

 

[duratothemax]

Look guys.... we are presented here with the oppurtunity to work side by side with (presumably) the owner of a rod manufacturing facility who knows what they are doing.

If they really and truly know what they are doing, they dont/arent gonna need input from a bunch of uneducated (mechanically engineering/rod engineering standpoint) idiots on an INTERNET FORUM... thats the root of my skepticism. They are already well on their way to making these rods (so John says) and up until pat said something a few posts ago, they didnt even know the weights of the stock pistons??? Seriously?

Matt thats great you want to sell them; just another thing you can peddle/make a buck off of yet not actually know a damn thing about. Say you just blew your motor yesterday and didnt yet know which way you wanted to go as far as internal parts. Would you run them in your truck if they went on sale tomorrow?

For all intents and purposes, John Noonan and his company have NO MORE experience in making diesel rods than idiot pink slippers DuramaxTuner does/did. I dont know why all you guys are under some impression that he knows something DuramaxTuner didnt...?????

Im done in this thread starting now with this post. IF these rods ever come out and they hold 900rwhp reliably and offer a significant cost savings over the current proven rods, then you guys can all thumb your noses at me, put a dunce cap on my head, and make me kiss your shoes. But until then this is all just talk/smoke/mirrors.

Good luck!

ben

 

[sweetdiesel]

If they really and truly know what they are doing, they dont/arent gonna need input from a bunch of uneducated (mechanically engineering/rod engineering standpoint) idiots on an INTERNET FORUM... thats the root of my skepticism. They are already well on their way to making these rods (so John says) and up until pat said something a few posts ago, they didnt even know the weights of the stock pistons??? Seriously?

Matt thats great you want to sell them; just another thing you can peddle/make a buck off of yet not actually know a damn thing about. Say you just blew your motor yesterday and didnt yet know which way you wanted to go as far as internal parts. Would you run them in your truck if they went on sale tomorrow?

For all intents and purposes, John Noonan and his company have NO MORE experience in making diesel rods than idiot pink slippers DuramaxTuner does/did. I dont know why all you guys are under some impression that he knows something DuramaxTuner didnt...?????

Im done in this thread starting now with this post. IF these rods ever come out and they hold 900rwhp reliably and offer a significant cost savings over the current proven rods, then you guys can all thumb your noses at me, put a dunce cap on my head, and make me kiss your shoes. But until then this is all just talk/smoke/mirrors.

Good luck!

ben

Is John asking you to purchase the rods? Is he asking for your opinion?
Or your specific input?

Point is if he wants to make them that is his decision....If you want to buy them thats your choice.


I for one am glad your done posting in this thread