so ben got banned then unbanned and this turned into another ats v sc thread.
Cool:rockon:
Isnt that what usually happens around here? Thread starts as one thing, ends as another. :rofl:
so ben got banned then unbanned and this turned into another ats v sc thread.
Cool:rockon:
Just think, if it was that easy to get banned here at DD.... I would be missing out on all of this quality technical information. :doh:
Seriously, 3 to 4 years later and we are still talking about an isolated delaminating issues? The horse has been dead for 3 years now, was there an issue? yes there absolutely was and it was corrected. We had a bad batch of clutches that would not hold a bond, the problem was the glue the manufacturer supplied us was a water soluble glue, which is what every other clutch manufacturer at the time was using and continues to use today . To bond the clutches to the steels a chemical is sprayed onto the glue, this chemical makes the glue tacky, the clutch is then placed on a steel core and put into a bonder with two plates that are heated to 425 F. A hydraulic ram then compresses the two plates together for about 14 minutes. After the clutch is bonded and allowed to cool, compressed air (120 PSI) is blown between the steel and the friction to ensure the two pieces are boned properly. Now going back to the water soluble friction material, this has been a problem in the converter manufacturing world for years. After the clutch material (friction) is bonded to the steel plate the friction needs to stay bonded to the steel or there are big problems. If the clutch friction material becomes separated from the core then that is what is called a de-lamination. Water is a common cause of this, especially if a transmission cooler explodes and the engine coolant is allowed to enter the cooler lines contaminating the transmission fluid. All is fine for a while tell the bonding agent is broken down causing a delamination. It takes sometime but eventually what happens is the moisture soaks into the glue of the clutch and reacts with adhesion to loosen up and cause the friction material to come off. This is a bad situation for everyone and we do everything we can to get through it .We have since changed the friction material and the glue, it is now an Epoxy based glue. The friction material is now made from a combination of carbon , cellulose, Kevlar, and two other materials that we will not divulge. This has proved to be a fantastic friction for all applications form stock to modified power levels. This friction material is also what allows for the Viskus drive in the Five Star converter to work.
We spent a lot of time and money researching a true remedy. This is what we came up with, the two areas of concern were friction material and a bonding process that would never come off. We needed to offer a friction surface that provided a high coefficient of friction but still offers a smooth engagement when applied. This can be a real challenge because a friction typically ether wants to slip or grip to the steel surface of the clutch plate, not much in between. We worked several year formulating our friction material that is used in our converters so we could offer a clutch that will have a very strong friction coefficient and allow slip when the plates are squeezed together. This multi-grade friction material acts like Kevlar when the plates are sliding together and like cellulose when the plates are stopped. When used with transmission fluid the friction coefficient changes state during the clutch application. Because of this we can build a friction clutch element like we manufacture for the Allison transmission in the C-3 clutch pack without the cooling slots. This gives us 170% more clutch surface per clutch plate and increases our average lever arm increasing the torque capacity of the clutch pack by over 48%. Because of the friction material that we formulated we do not need to worry about the highly modulated clutch being damaged because of slop during the apply and we will never get a chatter at the end of the shift. As for the glue that bonds the friction to the clutch; We also sourced out an aerospace epoxy that will not delam from heat or water. Since we have used this bonding agent in all of our converters and clutch packs we have experienced no problems. Today we get several competitors transmissions and converters into ATS that are sent in to us as cores, this is still a somewhat common problem we see when these units are torn down. We feel very confident that we have utilized our combined efforts to offer a superior produce as you see in our clutch kits and all of our converters. I hope this helps clear up some of the questions that are out there regarding out friction clutches and manufacturing techniques.
Yes we knew about the issue after sending the material back to the manufacture for a failure analysis, after they informed us of the problem we immediately stopped using the Clutches and went with the Altos until we sourced the manufacturer we are using still today. The problem was there where still clutches out there in ATS built transmissions and also in transmissions others have built. Some of the failures happened within a few weeks some of them took a year before the clutches finally delaminated..
A Bag of Parts ????? If a customer purchased a full transmission and had a clutch failure a new unit was sent to them in replacement, If the customer had purchased a rebuild kit they were sent a replacement clutches.
As for Wade not sure why this is relevant to anything, pretty sure the shop he went to had already been selling ATS and Suncoast . Regardless if a customer wanted a ATS or Suncoast im sure they wanted to be able to get what the customers wanted.
Mike Meinecke
ATS Diesel
so ben got banned then unbanned and this turned into another ats v sc thread.
Cool:rockon:
Why in the hell would you bond your own clutches? You do not have the capability to do it properly. It is all about bottom line profit. No one in the industry had this problem but you. I can buy the 10K clutch bonder and do the same thing as you but, you need an engineer to watch what is going on and not a 15 dollar an hour flunky gluing cluches. Ever look at your clutch plates? The lining does not even line up properly to the steel backing. Want a picture? Some of the magazine articles with your trans parts had Alto clutches used instead of yours because no one trusted your stuff. I was there I know all the technical stuff that it takes to build a proper clutch and I don't have ability and neither does ATS.
This is why I didn't go back and post in the other forum. I did not want to bring it to this but here we are. You guys continued to sell defective clutches after you knew they were no good. I had talks with Clint and he said a rerplacement was coming. It took over 2 years but you kept selling your existing clutches. WTF Am I to believe you now that everything is hunky dory with your linig? The lining still is off center. You charge enough money; straighten the lining on the clutches. Now we can talk about your killer warranty. You may need it before the truck ever leaves the shop.
Now are you happy you pushed it to this?
Bout time you grew some and posted in refrence to what you started on Duramaxforum. Come getcha some! :rofl::rofl:
there we go again with the copied bs again. mike, its a crude metal brace! nothing special. i have one on my truck and its great, but in reality, its solid square bar welded to some steel plate; whooptie doo! i only got one from them because the owed me core money for the apply piston and plates and converter. something else- is why the hell would suncoast want that rubber covered piston out of my used trans instead of sending me a brand new machined down piece? pretty dumb considering that i paid like $3200 for new shit. that piston isnt very expensive that they had to scrimp on it.Numb nuts is back.:baby::hello:
Aren't you the guy that reverse engineered ( fricken copied ) Suncost transfercase brace on your bosses place of work using his equipment and metal while you were being payed and said you could build that brace for 50.00?
there we go again with the copied bs again. mike, its a crude metal brace! nothing special. i have one on my truck and its great, but in reality, its solid square bar welded to some steel plate; whooptie doo! i only got one from them because the owed me core money for the apply piston and plates and converter. something else- is why the hell would suncoast want that rubber covered piston out of my used trans instead of sending me a brand new machined down piece? pretty dumb considering that i paid like $3200 for new shit. that piston isnt very expensive that they had to scrimp on it.
mike l, you should save these stories for when you put the grandkids to bed................zzzzzzzzzz
You have no business in this thread.
Hey I am a tech specialist over there....
I try to help out as much as I can.
I didn't go back because of repect for Clint and ATS. remember you were the idiot posting about broken beer bottles in Mikes trans. As far as growing them; you don't know me very well.
HMMM so is Ben no longer banned on the duramax forum?
After reading a few threads over there, I ask myself two questions:
Why are Ben, MMLMM, Newly, Mike, Chad and what looks to be a host of other guys I recognize even over there? IMO, that site is hopeless, and if you're a paying vendor/member there, why are you tolerating the Mods acting like they are. Mods arent Gods.
Second: That forum is is also part of AutoForums. Why even bother?
Isn't that the outfit that owns DP?
I'm also a bit surprised that Pat and Kat allowed this argument between vendors to move over here. You're kidding right? have you not read this thread....most everything has a price Tom...Whats the heck is next?
I thought we were getting away from that shit. Freakin embarrassing....
You're kidding right? have you not read this thread....most everything has a price Tom...
I'm also a bit surprised that Pat and Kat allowed this argument between vendors to move over here
I'm by no means busting your ball here, but don't a lot of triples rattle? My PI always has and I seem to remember reading about SC triples doing it too...I thought it was common. At least it isn't as loud as those south bend triples for the ZF6...they're pretty nasty...
No we just don't shut down every thread and ban everyone for no reason. I never said that you did.We don't allow personal attacks I thought you were the only grounded one of the bunch, but you lost me with this one. We all know that while not everyone is allowed to insult and attack other members here, a select few are... but if people want to get something off their chest its allowed here.
Drama is going to happen and so long as a thread doesn't get stupid it will be allowed. define stupid...thread about ben getting banned from df=ats sucks....uh, okay... If that's a problem the door is right over >>>>