Off to banned camp

Mike L.

Got Sheep?
Staff member
Vendor/Sponsor
Aug 12, 2006
15,681
232
63
Fullerton CA
Just think, if it was that easy to get banned here at DD.... I would be missing out on all of this quality technical information. :doh:

Numb nuts is back.:baby::hello:
Aren't you the guy that reverse engineered ( fricken copied ) Suncost transfercase brace on your bosses place of work using his equipment and metal while you were being payed and said you could build that brace for 50.00?
 

Mike L.

Got Sheep?
Staff member
Vendor/Sponsor
Aug 12, 2006
15,681
232
63
Fullerton CA
Seriously, 3 to 4 years later and we are still talking about an isolated delaminating issues? The horse has been dead for 3 years now, was there an issue? yes there absolutely was and it was corrected. We had a bad batch of clutches that would not hold a bond, the problem was the glue the manufacturer supplied us was a water soluble glue, which is what every other clutch manufacturer at the time was using and continues to use today . To bond the clutches to the steels a chemical is sprayed onto the glue, this chemical makes the glue tacky, the clutch is then placed on a steel core and put into a bonder with two plates that are heated to 425 F. A hydraulic ram then compresses the two plates together for about 14 minutes. After the clutch is bonded and allowed to cool, compressed air (120 PSI) is blown between the steel and the friction to ensure the two pieces are boned properly. Now going back to the water soluble friction material, this has been a problem in the converter manufacturing world for years. After the clutch material (friction) is bonded to the steel plate the friction needs to stay bonded to the steel or there are big problems. If the clutch friction material becomes separated from the core then that is what is called a de-lamination. Water is a common cause of this, especially if a transmission cooler explodes and the engine coolant is allowed to enter the cooler lines contaminating the transmission fluid. All is fine for a while tell the bonding agent is broken down causing a delamination. It takes sometime but eventually what happens is the moisture soaks into the glue of the clutch and reacts with adhesion to loosen up and cause the friction material to come off. This is a bad situation for everyone and we do everything we can to get through it .We have since changed the friction material and the glue, it is now an Epoxy based glue. The friction material is now made from a combination of carbon , cellulose, Kevlar, and two other materials that we will not divulge. This has proved to be a fantastic friction for all applications form stock to modified power levels. This friction material is also what allows for the Viskus drive in the Five Star converter to work.

We spent a lot of time and money researching a true remedy. This is what we came up with, the two areas of concern were friction material and a bonding process that would never come off. We needed to offer a friction surface that provided a high coefficient of friction but still offers a smooth engagement when applied. This can be a real challenge because a friction typically ether wants to slip or grip to the steel surface of the clutch plate, not much in between. We worked several year formulating our friction material that is used in our converters so we could offer a clutch that will have a very strong friction coefficient and allow slip when the plates are squeezed together. This multi-grade friction material acts like Kevlar when the plates are sliding together and like cellulose when the plates are stopped. When used with transmission fluid the friction coefficient changes state during the clutch application. Because of this we can build a friction clutch element like we manufacture for the Allison transmission in the C-3 clutch pack without the cooling slots. This gives us 170% more clutch surface per clutch plate and increases our average lever arm increasing the torque capacity of the clutch pack by over 48%. Because of the friction material that we formulated we do not need to worry about the highly modulated clutch being damaged because of slop during the apply and we will never get a chatter at the end of the shift. As for the glue that bonds the friction to the clutch; We also sourced out an aerospace epoxy that will not delam from heat or water. Since we have used this bonding agent in all of our converters and clutch packs we have experienced no problems. Today we get several competitors transmissions and converters into ATS that are sent in to us as cores, this is still a somewhat common problem we see when these units are torn down. We feel very confident that we have utilized our combined efforts to offer a superior produce as you see in our clutch kits and all of our converters. I hope this helps clear up some of the questions that are out there regarding out friction clutches and manufacturing techniques.




Yes we knew about the issue after sending the material back to the manufacture for a failure analysis, after they informed us of the problem we immediately stopped using the Clutches and went with the Altos until we sourced the manufacturer we are using still today. The problem was there where still clutches out there in ATS built transmissions and also in transmissions others have built. Some of the failures happened within a few weeks some of them took a year before the clutches finally delaminated..



A Bag of Parts ????? If a customer purchased a full transmission and had a clutch failure a new unit was sent to them in replacement, If the customer had purchased a rebuild kit they were sent a replacement clutches.



As for Wade not sure why this is relevant to anything, pretty sure the shop he went to had already been selling ATS and Suncoast . Regardless if a customer wanted a ATS or Suncoast im sure they wanted to be able to get what the customers wanted.

Mike Meinecke
ATS Diesel

Why in the hell would you bond your own clutches? You do not have the capability to do it properly. It is all about bottom line profit. No one in the industry had this problem but you. I can buy the 10K clutch bonder and do the same thing as you but, you need an engineer to watch what is going on and not a 15 dollar an hour flunky gluing cluches. Ever look at your clutch plates? The lining does not even line up properly to the steel backing. Want a picture? Some of the magazine articles with your trans parts had Alto clutches used instead of yours because no one trusted your stuff. I was there I know all the technical stuff that it takes to build a proper clutch and I don't have ability and neither does ATS.
This is why I didn't go back and post in the other forum. I did not want to bring it to this but here we are. You guys continued to sell defective clutches after you knew they were no good. I had talks with Clint and he said a rerplacement was coming. It took over 2 years but you kept selling your existing clutches. WTF Am I to believe you now that everything is hunky dory with your linig? The lining still is off center. You charge enough money; straighten the lining on the clutches. Now we can talk about your killer warranty. You may need it before the truck ever leaves the shop.
Now are you happy you pushed it to this?
 

NWTDIESEL

On a Time Out
May 8, 2008
1,405
0
0
ATS Extreme trans
Why in the hell would you bond your own clutches? You do not have the capability to do it properly. It is all about bottom line profit. No one in the industry had this problem but you. I can buy the 10K clutch bonder and do the same thing as you but, you need an engineer to watch what is going on and not a 15 dollar an hour flunky gluing cluches. Ever look at your clutch plates? The lining does not even line up properly to the steel backing. Want a picture? Some of the magazine articles with your trans parts had Alto clutches used instead of yours because no one trusted your stuff. I was there I know all the technical stuff that it takes to build a proper clutch and I don't have ability and neither does ATS.
This is why I didn't go back and post in the other forum. I did not want to bring it to this but here we are. You guys continued to sell defective clutches after you knew they were no good. I had talks with Clint and he said a rerplacement was coming. It took over 2 years but you kept selling your existing clutches. WTF Am I to believe you now that everything is hunky dory with your linig? The lining still is off center. You charge enough money; straighten the lining on the clutches. Now we can talk about your killer warranty. You may need it before the truck ever leaves the shop.
Now are you happy you pushed it to this?

Bout time you grew some and posted in refrence to what you started on Duramaxforum. Come getcha some! :rofl::rofl:
 

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Mike L.

Got Sheep?
Staff member
Vendor/Sponsor
Aug 12, 2006
15,681
232
63
Fullerton CA
Bout time you grew some and posted in refrence to what you started on Duramaxforum. Come getcha some! :rofl::rofl:

I didn't go back because of repect for Clint and ATS. remember you were the idiot posting about broken beer bottles in Mikes trans. As far as growing them; you don't know me very well.
 

dmaxvaz

wannabe puller
Nov 22, 2006
1,132
0
0
46
METRO DETROIT
Numb nuts is back.:baby::hello:
Aren't you the guy that reverse engineered ( fricken copied ) Suncost transfercase brace on your bosses place of work using his equipment and metal while you were being payed and said you could build that brace for 50.00?
there we go again with the copied bs again. mike, its a crude metal brace! nothing special. i have one on my truck and its great, but in reality, its solid square bar welded to some steel plate; whooptie doo! i only got one from them because the owed me core money for the apply piston and plates and converter. something else- is why the hell would suncoast want that rubber covered piston out of my used trans instead of sending me a brand new machined down piece? pretty dumb considering that i paid like $3200 for new shit. that piston isnt very expensive that they had to scrimp on it.
mike l, you should save these stories for when you put the grandkids to bed................zzzzzzzzzz
 

paint94979

Beer Nazi
Sep 18, 2006
11,715
8
38
37
there we go again with the copied bs again. mike, its a crude metal brace! nothing special. i have one on my truck and its great, but in reality, its solid square bar welded to some steel plate; whooptie doo! i only got one from them because the owed me core money for the apply piston and plates and converter. something else- is why the hell would suncoast want that rubber covered piston out of my used trans instead of sending me a brand new machined down piece? pretty dumb considering that i paid like $3200 for new shit. that piston isnt very expensive that they had to scrimp on it.
mike l, you should save these stories for when you put the grandkids to bed................zzzzzzzzzz

You have no business in this thread.
 

NWTDIESEL

On a Time Out
May 8, 2008
1,405
0
0
ATS Extreme trans
I didn't go back because of repect for Clint and ATS. remember you were the idiot posting about broken beer bottles in Mikes trans. As far as growing them; you don't know me very well.


Yes, MMLMM is my friend. It was a joke because of the bull crap rivalry beween the one company who "builds" there trans and the company that installs others parts in theirs. Others actually corrected me and said they would find wine bottles in there.:D

You sure showed respect to Clint and ATS by calling Bryan out and saying he didnt know $hit and he didnt know who his manager was. Now your calling them idiots for bonding there own plates, saying they are not lined up and saying they need a good warrenty to drive out of the shop.:hello: Is it red or white tonight?

Na, i dont know you very well but atleast im not asking others there opinion on you. I can form my own opinion. You started a thread talking $hit and let it die and now its closed. = no balls.

Like i said, i have told others you install a good trans. Lots of my friends have your trans and i have never told any of them they had a junk trans like you so blatently told me "if you had a good trans you wouldnt be going to Denver to get it fixed". I love going to Denver as much as i love stirring the pot.
 
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Blueox03

New member
Aug 12, 2006
668
0
0
Jackson County, MS
After reading a few threads over there, I ask myself two questions:

Why are Ben, MMLMM, Newly, Mike, Chad and what looks to be a host of other guys I recognize even over there? IMO, that site is hopeless, and if you're a paying vendor/member there, why are you tolerating the Mods acting like they are. Mods arent Gods.

Second: That forum is is also part of AutoForums. Why even bother?

Isn't that the outfit that owns DP?



I'm also a bit surprised that Pat and Kat allowed this argument between vendors to move over here. You're kidding right? have you not read this thread....most everything has a price Tom...Whats the heck is next?
I thought we were getting away from that shit. Freakin embarrassing....

....
 

Poltergeist

Ghost in the Machine
Aug 1, 2006
29,563
1
36
Ontario, Calif.
www.poltergeist.us
You're kidding right? have you not read this thread....most everything has a price Tom...

No we just don't shut down every thread and ban everyone for no reason. We don't allow personal attacks but if people want to get something off their chest its allowed here.

Drama is going to happen and so long as a thread doesn't get stupid it will be allowed. If that's a problem the door is right over >>>>
 

paint94979

Beer Nazi
Sep 18, 2006
11,715
8
38
37
I'm also a bit surprised that Pat and Kat allowed this argument between vendors to move over here

I have lots of respect for you and your truck, this is not a shot at you but please don't bring Pat and Kat into this alright. This isn;t the DP threads aren't going to get closed unless they get WAY! out of hand
 

LBZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Jul 2, 2007
9,903
149
63
46
B.C.
I'm by no means busting your ball here, but don't a lot of triples rattle? My PI always has and I seem to remember reading about SC triples doing it too...I thought it was common. At least it isn't as loud as those south bend triples for the ZF6...they're pretty nasty...

I have not heard of many triples rattling when they were new-including the old style ATS ones and I have never heard an SC rattle . But the 5 star rattle I have is louder than the engine and has been since new. If it did it when it was older then I guess I would have accepted it a little more as wear and tear right?

Bottom line is warranty is useless to me as I have to pay the shipping-which when crossing borders gets VERY expensive. This was the point some of the others have made about warranty being not worth the paper it's written on.
 
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McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
11,249
26
38
64
Norco CA
www.mcratracing.com
While it started as an off-topic post, threads have a mind of their own.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread ventured into tech.

And since I spent my buck fifty at ATS, I'm going to post my results and opinions.

One relatively minor issue with ATS has nothing to do with quality control, it's marketing. There are a couple dealers of ATS stuff that get on the internet and proceed to insult as many folk as is possible.

Does anyone think that will increase ATS market share? Not hardly. It draws out customers who would normally keep their dissatisfaction private out into the public. That's what happened to me. I kept my ATS problem off the internet for a long time until a Super ATS Dealer decided to be a prick. Then I posted publically about my experiences and test results.
 

Blueox03

New member
Aug 12, 2006
668
0
0
Jackson County, MS
I'm not sure I follow how this applies to my post...
No we just don't shut down every thread and ban everyone for no reason. I never said that you did.We don't allow personal attacks I thought you were the only grounded one of the bunch, but you lost me with this one. We all know that while not everyone is allowed to insult and attack other members here, a select few are... but if people want to get something off their chest its allowed here.

Drama is going to happen and so long as a thread doesn't get stupid it will be allowed. define stupid...thread about ben getting banned from df=ats sucks....uh, okay... If that's a problem the door is right over >>>>