Build costs

[DIESELMAFIAPER.LB7]

beech when do you plan on building it?

Very good post ! and hits most important points fromm all sides is this thread IMOP



I agree the the heads may need attention , but tell me this ................. if you dont touch your motor your truck will easily go another 100k with out a single valve train problem ....................................... right ? or is it a ticking time bomb now , how is not touching your heads right now and running another 50k, any different than re-assembling the motor with the heads in the same condition there in right now as your driving down the road ? other than making sure the sealing surface is clean and flat to insure the head gaskets seal right ? not trying to stir the shit hear but you cant say these kind of questions arent valid when $$ is tight , now by all means if you have the $$ go all new , hell I would have Socal stage 2 heads if i had the $$ instead I rebuilt mine myself , pulled each valve , cleaned , inspected , replaced parts as needed and re-assembled .


Edit: these questions like above have been my main point to this thread all along , question whats going into your motor , think about what are actual performance holding parts AKA increases what power you can run , performance increasing parts ( camshaft , ect ) , and just simple parts needed to replace worn parts , set a budget , replace what is ACTUAL worn or broken to achieve a fullly functional back to factory or better specification engine ( thats all a rebuild achieves weather you replace all parts or none the result is the same if this statement is made true ) , Upgrade what is nec for your target HP level.

This statement above only counts if budget is your concern , if it isnt its a whole different scenerio .

Couldn't agree more on that

 

[Redbowties88]

Who said you needed an overbore?

someone said that guy recommended it if over 50k

 

[DIESELMAFIAPER.LB7]

someone said that guy recommended it if over 50k

I had 196 k on my motor when I tore it down standard everything went back in didn't bore mine broke the glaze with a hone an after 19k on the motor @550-600rwhp daily driven sled pulled drag raced everything thing is perfect still other then I wish I had a bigger cp3 to support my nozzles can't support a 2200 pw only holds 19-20k.. but as for boring it out I'm not sure why but Guy does know his stuff but I personally think you'll be fine check your clearances on ring gap an skirt clearances to.make sure

 

[ripmf666]

The more miles on the motor the more parts and machine work will be needed. I know Guy says around 50k you should really look at going .020 over since the bore might not seal the best so that throws out reusing your old pistons.

All the gaskets to do a build new oil cooler and bolts and ARP studs do add up fast. I wish I could get some of those machine shop rates out on this side of the country.

someone said that guy recommended it if over 50k

I posted what I have been told before. He saw it on his own motor from his truck with around I think he said 56k I had mine checked I had 30,500 miles and I checked out fine but I still went with new cut and coated LB7 piston and new rings and ran the first 6 hole at 3 and 1/2 thousands piston to side wall and the last 2 in the back at 4 thousands. The specs for checking your Block and other parts are on the site at this link http://www.duramaxdiesels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6137




Block

• Cylinder Bore Diameter - Service Limits

103.11 mm


4.0594 in

• Cylinder Bore Diameter - Production Value

103.0-103.014 mm


4.0551-4.0557 in

• Cylinder Bore Out-of-Round - Production Value

0.015 mm


0.0006 in

• Cylinder Bore Taper - Production Value

0.015 mm
0.0006 in

 

[Redbowties88]

ok thanks for the info henry

 

[Relentlesscummins]

ok thanks for the info henry

Flip a coin new used etc. shit breaks. Some guys can go 200k miles no problems some can go 2k miles and have everything break. What kind of power do you want to be making on your built motor? You going to be running single turbo or twins. Juice or no juice? Matter how good of parts or engine builder crap will break. You into racing? Watch any kind of race nascar, top fuel, etc. and you willl see brand new built motors from the best builders out there blow up it happens. One of my buddies has a stock trans in his truck with 160k miles he has ran it probably 100 times down the track ran bottle on it beat it to hell and its still going strong, not a engine but I hope your picking up what I'm laying down:thumb:

 

[RENODMAX]

Very good post ! and hits most important points fromm all sides is this thread IMOP



I agree the the heads may need attention , but tell me this ................. if you dont touch your motor your truck will easily go another 100k with out a single valve train problem ....................................... right ? or is it a ticking time bomb now , how is not touching your heads right now and running another 50k, any different than re-assembling the motor with the heads in the same condition there in right now as your driving down the road ? other than making sure the sealing surface is clean and flat to insure the head gaskets seal right ? not trying to stir the shit hear but you cant say these kind of questions arent valid when $$ is tight , now by all means if you have the $$ go all new , hell I would have Socal stage 2 heads if i had the $$ instead I rebuilt mine myself , pulled each valve , cleaned , inspected , replaced parts as needed and re-assembled .


Edit: these questions like above have been my main point to this thread all along , question whats going into your motor , think about what are actual performance holding parts AKA increases what power you can run , performance increasing parts ( camshaft , ect ) , and just simple parts needed to replace worn parts , set a budget , replace what is ACTUAL worn or broken to achieve a fullly functional back to factory or better specification engine ( thats all a rebuild achieves weather you replace all parts or none the result is the same if this statement is made true ) , Upgrade what is nec for your target HP level.

This statement above only counts if budget is your concern , if it isnt its a whole different scenerio .

One of the things I think must be remembered when talking about first time builds is that a new builder may not know what needs/doesn't need replacement. That is where I see one of the biggest risks. You may be one a budget but if you are not 100% positive the parts you are putting back in your motor are good then your budget be shattered if the motor has to come back out in a few thousand miles. Just my opinion however.

 

[Relentlesscummins]

Or sell it and buy kellys truck looks like he is thinking of getting rid of his:thumb:

 

[Jscherbs]

great thread

Beech, just get a 2nd job so u can build a spare race motor n just swap em out lol

 

[Diesel power]

For the love of racing! That's beautiful! Don't get all fast and furious on me like that Wade cat now Dmitri.lol I run my mouth for the most part anymore. I've got an o piece of shit that didn't get down the track a whole lot slower than your 1700 horse ride 5 years ago!lol

Fast and furious huh? :hug:

 

[DaveB]

What I gather from this thread is that I should have just bought a new Camaro if I wanted to go fast, spend half the money on building it, most likely be more reliable, and faster. :cussing:

 

[Kat]

What I gather from this thread is that I should have just bought a new Camaro if I wanted to go fast, spend half the money on building it, most likely be more reliable, and faster. :cussing:

:nod: I thought racing our Z06 was stupid expensive:baby:

 

[juddski88]

Here is my question ? what do people consider " half assed" "incorrect" , ect ? I keep hearing comments on the subject and several are from people with ZERO miles, ZERO passe's , and NO HP #'s to associate to there "bullet proof" motors , throwing parts at a motor asnd calling it "the right way" as Insurance I have a problem with there are several things in this thread it doesn't apply to as there has been some b=very good info and advice shared , but a competent mechanic / machinist has the ability to tear a engine down completely , inspect every item and decide from there what a motor does and does not need based off of the target HP goal , wear of the internal items , ect .

Just something to think about , I "half assed a motor last year in a lot of peoples minds , the forget that I have built several engines prior , am a ASE certified "Master tech " one of those in "engine repair and diagnostics" , just because I didnt throw 10k at it doesnt mean it was "shotty"

Trent, you know I respect your accomplishments and your love of diesel motorsports, but I have to say something in regards to your budget-build. You had every right to do it yourself for your own truck, whether your advertised budget was true or not we will never know and frankly it doesn't matter, but to come into the Big Market "selling" budget builds similar to what you did just isn't safe- for the sport, the customer, or yourself. I know you don't believe us now, but try to always think 5yrs ahead in a business, not just regarding r&d.

Main studs have yet to be proven and will also up the cost of your build. When I build my motor for a DD it will not use main studs, but that is just my opinion.

I will never understand how someone can put in headbolts and main bolts instead of the cheap upgrade to studs...its not worth the risk. More and more we are now seeing people trying to make failed ideas from 5yrs ago work today just to be cheaper than the next guy, its just plain disrespectful to all the people who have lost big$$ seeing what works and what doesnt.

I encourage any one to build it themselves , and I will never be afraid to say the truth even if it isnt the popular route , its the truth non the less , when you called looking for turbo info did I help ? was I honest when you asked if one of my kits would out perform your old one ? did I "sell" you anything ? how much time did I spend out of my busy day with nothing to gain ? I am here to help even if it means trying things that some consider wrong I prooved what could be done on a budget and shared every bit of it. and My motor was only pulled once , lasted an entire race season at over 1k HP , will yours ?

I have to be frank here too Trent, I know its a sales pitch for you now, I get it and i don't dig at you for that, but you didn't race all the races you wanted to, remember? There were other issues with the truck that prevented you from making it a "full" season. It like saying Cummins Killer made it a full season this year, but they only pulled at half the events they did the previous year to compare to. You've previously said that your motor owed you nothing this year, and I agree, because you saw that the bare minimum doesn't work. You learned a little bit, thats more than some people can say, but at least don't leave parts of the story out just because a good amount of your customers are from this forum. It may look like a good business stance to take now but just try to envision what it will do in 5yrs. To your business and yourself.

 

[camomax]

Matt, has your most recent build seen any street time or is it strip only?

Yeah Beech, plenty of street tuning, and just playing around. I wouldnt tow with it, but its still very streetable.(just have to take the damn cheater slicks off each time)

 

[Diesel power]

Building engines, any engine, has it's purpose and flaws, none will be "unbreakable" this is a fact.

It will cost more than you expect, thats just the way it goes!
Getting quotes are a good way to get an idea on what it will cost, but a quote is not set in stone.

Materials, parts and shipping cost's change every month, with the cost of fuel and consumables going up everyday.

i am a firm believer that you get what you pay for, with that said i mean that it's kinda like buying from walmart...it'a all made in china and the quality is piss poor in most cases. Well thats the way america wanted it and by trying to push prices down in the dirt, your inviteing piss poor quality and materials into what you "think" is top notch.

People that think that way(driving prices into the dirt) are the one's responsible for the way our country is today. Dont get me wrong i have bought from plces like WM, but only when i have to. i buy the most american and high quality stuff when ever i can, as long as it's availble.

i think that better quality and cost for the quality is bennifitial to everyone. you get the quality and the maker gets payed well, work stays in america!

 

[Evan@InglewoodTrans]

I have to be frank here too Trent, I know its a sales pitch for you now, I get it and i don't dig at you for that, but you didn't race all the races you wanted to, remember? There were other issues with the truck that prevented you from making it a "full" season. It like saying Cummins Killer made it a full season this year, but they only pulled at half the events they did the previous year to compare to. You've previously said that your motor owed you nothing this year, and I agree, because you saw that the bare minimum doesn't work. You learned a little bit, thats more than some people can say, but at least don't leave parts of the story out just because a good amount of your customers are from this forum. It may look like a good business stance to take now but just try to envision what it will do in 5yrs. To your business and yourself.[/QUOTE]How does cracking a piston on a truck running the track proven power he was show the bare minimum doesn't work ?

 

[Relentlesscummins]

This thread is going no where I say close it:thumb:

 

[Utahski]

.... I have to say something in regards to your budget-build. You had every right to do it yourself for your own truck, whether your advertised budget was true or not we will never know and frankly it doesn't matter, but to come into the Big Market "selling" budget builds similar to what you did just isn't safe- for the sport, the customer, or yourself. I know you don't believe us now, but try to always think 5yrs ahead in a business, not just regarding r&d.

Advertised budget "true or not"?? Don't even go there, it was just as he said. It was a real tight budget and because he did his own engine that way doesn't mean he's "selling" that stuff to anyone else. Talk to him and you'd find out that he wouldn't.

I have to be frank here too Trent, I know its a sales pitch for you now, I get it and i don't dig at you for that, but you didn't race all the races you wanted to, remember? There were other issues with the truck that prevented you from making it a "full" season. It like saying Cummins Killer made it a full season this year, but they only pulled at half the events they did the previous year to compare to. You've previously said that your motor owed you nothing this year, and I agree, because you saw that the bare minimum doesn't work. You learned a little bit, thats more than some people can say, but at least don't leave parts of the story out just because a good amount of your customers are from this forum. It may look like a good business stance to take now but just try to envision what it will do in 5yrs. To your business and yourself.

"Sales pitch"?? What sales pitch? "...you saw that the bare minimum doesn't work" ?? Wtf you talking about? He knew it was a stretch from the beginning to make big power on a bunch of stock parts. It worked for the season and held together better than expected, which is all he wanted. At the end of the season an uncoated factory piston cracked while making 1000+ hp. This was his own race engine done that way to get it out there, he's never advocated others to do it that way. "...don't leave out parts of the story..." ??? What parts of the story? Where do you get this stuff?

 

[TrentNell]

Trent, you know I respect your accomplishments and your love of diesel motorsports, but I have to say something in regards to your budget-build. You had every right to do it yourself for your own truck, whether your advertised budget was true or not we will never know and frankly it doesn't matter, but to come into the Big Market "selling" budget builds similar to what you did just isn't safe- for the sport, the customer, or yourself. I know you don't believe us now, but try to always think 5yrs ahead in a business, not just regarding r&d.

I will never understand how someone can put in headbolts and main bolts instead of the cheap upgrade to studs...its not worth the risk. More and more we are now seeing people trying to make failed ideas from 5yrs ago work today just to be cheaper than the next guy, its just plain disrespectful to all the people who have lost big$$ seeing what works and what doesnt.

I have to be frank here too Trent, I know its a sales pitch for you now, I get it and i don't dig at you for that, but you didn't race all the races you wanted to, remember? There were other issues with the truck that prevented you from making it a "full" season. It like saying Cummins Killer made it a full season this year, but they only pulled at half the events they did the previous year to compare to. You've previously said that your motor owed you nothing this year, and I agree, because you saw that the bare minimum doesn't work. You learned a little bit, thats more than some people can say, but at least don't leave parts of the story out just because a good amount of your customers are from this forum. It may look like a good business stance to take now but just try to envision what it will do in 5yrs. To your business and yourself.

I completely understand what your saying Tim , but you need to realize , I don't build engines other than my own , I don't spec my customers builds they do , If a motor I have done doesn't get main studs its because the end user chose that, I don't make that call , the customer does base on the power level they chose and there own personal opinion.

I didnt build the engine I did because I thought it was going to be enough , I had a choice either race with what I could afford or stay home . and in the end even if i spent 10k and did everything in the short block , my piston still would have failed @ 1100 + hp , I shared what I did knowing there would be scrutiny , and shared the results, people can make there own conclusions . and any one who thinks I would build the same engine for a customer better call some one else , as I dont build engines for any one but myself . why dont you wait to see what I run this year before you make speculation of what I think is needed or not , now that I can actually build it to what I think is needed for that power level ? no one has ever asked me what I would have done budget aside


On the cost ................... I never posted a cost in this thread , James did . I posted a list to defend myself regarding his quote for the services he was wanting and my exact words to him were " I can not garrentee you a cost on machine work until it has been broken down and every piece inspected by the machine shop" , hince the possibility of +1k $ and I only posted it because I was forced to defend myself when that came under scrutiny , nothing more , I didn't post the price of a single service, my customer pays what the machining cost + my surcharge for handling the motor , taking it to machine , ect . I make my money on assembling the long block ( extra ) remove / re-install ( extra ) , tuning , turbo kit , ect . My machine shop will not assemble an engine done improperly , as they are the ones at risk not me. .

 

[juddski88]

How does cracking a piston on a truck running the track proven power he was show the bare minimum doesn't work ?

How doesn't it man? Trent learned from it, he has said so and is (as far as I know) going to forged pistons this year. This thread was basically about what can be gotten away with and what can't be, in a motor build. Removing a ton of material from a stock piston to make a low compression piston didn't work. It was what Trent could afford, it was a different idea than most have tried, and we all watched in anticipation of an outcome - good, bad, or indifferent. Cutting stock pistons has worked for several people, but I guarantee that they weren't cut the same as Trent's. I am not saying that Trent F***ed them up or anything, I am just saying what he did didnt work. And my post to him was not saying he was a dummy or a bad guy, it was to point out that he has come off in this thread and in recent threads as the guy who is supplying "budget builds" like his to the market, and I just wanted to express my opinion that it is a dangerous game to play.