Twins with Twins, Anyone?
- Thread starter kidturbo
- Start date
On this one I can spin it out a good bit if needed. Hitting the oil filter ports correctly is only requirement. But, on the other engine, the main heat exchanger and electric waterpump have to mount under the oil cooler.. So using this engine to gauge it.
There is also a 1.25" cooling line that crosses under the pan to feeds the drivers side of the block in normal location. Plus a 1.5" seawater feed that wraps around the rear cover to supply charge cooler, then returns to the main heat exchanger. So ya gotta think like 5 pieces ahead.
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There is also a 1.25" cooling line that crosses under the pan to feeds the drivers side of the block in normal location. Plus a 1.5" seawater feed that wraps around the rear cover to supply charge cooler, then returns to the main heat exchanger. So ya gotta think like 5 pieces ahead.
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Before swapping the end plates, I did a quick mock up with heat exchanger in position. As ya can see, it starts getting a bit tight on port placement really quick.
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6" dia x 22" long. Cupronickle cores, 1.75 in and outs on engine side, circulated by a 55gpm electric. Two stages of that Merc 1200 race pump are pushing 90+gpm seawater to it and the charger cooler.
With that setup, the manufacture estimated I'll still need at least a 2 gallon reservoir somewhere in the system. Probably fit something up top by thermostat housing.
Also planing to run Evans waterless coolant which has a 375F boiling point. Which will hopefully control the hot spots issue inside the heads.
So the strategy is fix the factory pump cavitation issue with good electric, and run a fluid that won't boil. If she makes any pressure, ya know the heads are leaking... lol
Short answer, we won't know jack till its loaded on the dyno. Hero or Zero approach. I was gonna reverse the flow like LS, but wasn't sure if head gaskets would need modified first...
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Have you done any velocity erosion calculations for this. I'm no piping engineer but that seems a little bit high to me
Way more than my brain wanted..
The Merc racing seawater pump is rated at over 200 gpm. 3 x 1" impeller pumps stacked. However true bench test numbers on a single 1" pump are they top out around 45gpm. So, that's why I call this 2 stage run at 90.
My 700hp boat had a single 1" merc pump for everything. Soon as the impeller saw some hours, it wouldn't keep up at WOT for long. Engine Temps would creap into the 220f range. It was an open loop system, so no antifreeze to bump boiling point.
Banks says his intake charge cooler requires 80gpm at 850hp. He used a different 2 stage seawater pump on his setup. But that cooled the engine also.
The Miezere 55gpm electric is rated using open into a drum math. True flow with backpressure is mid 30's according to the company. They are a choked down on those WP hose fittings to 1.290" max. I'm feeding 2 x 1.25 hoses to back of the block from that pump. True 2x 1" min dia on that side of the system. So the pump is limiting factor.
If ya look back about 6 pages, I put a block off plate between the ports in rear cover.. To guarantee I can supply equal volume to both sides of the block. Now that's becoming a plumbing nightmare. Wish I would have just orifice cover hole on same side as pump like GM did on lml. Would saved ton of aggravations now.
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Wow, I can see why your head would hurt.
I was more thinking along the lines of the 90 gpm through the heat exchanger or more specifically the 1.75 ports if that is the way you are plumping it in.
I know cupronickel is a bit tougher then standard copper pipe but in my several jobs I've fought several times with erosion and pin hole leaks due to high velocity water flow. The 45 gpm sounds reasonable but 90 gpm seems like it is pushing it. Do the heat exchangers have any paperwork that defines its max rated continuous flow?
Edit, did a quick search on the Gargler and seen this on the Engineering Toolbox site:
"The water velocity in a copper tube should be kept within certain limits to avoid erosion, corrosion and excessive noise generation.
in cold water systems - the velocities should not exceed 8 feet per second (2.4 m/s)
in hot water systems with temperatures below 140 oF (60 oC) - the velocities should not exceed 5 feet per second (1.5 m/s)
in hot water systems with temperatures above 140 oF (60 oC) - the velocities should not exceed 2 feet per second (0.6 m/s)
Note - be aware - and take care of - that local velocities in small tubes, bends and similar obstructions may exceed the values above."
And running some quick calculations with the help of a GPM to velocity calculator I come up with 90 gpm through a 1.75" pipe = 12 ft/s
I'm not sure how much harder cupronickel is over hard copper pipe but I would still be concerned about the life of the heat exchangers at that flow.
Hopefully I am going overboard and everything is well within the limits
I was more thinking along the lines of the 90 gpm through the heat exchanger or more specifically the 1.75 ports if that is the way you are plumping it in.
I know cupronickel is a bit tougher then standard copper pipe but in my several jobs I've fought several times with erosion and pin hole leaks due to high velocity water flow. The 45 gpm sounds reasonable but 90 gpm seems like it is pushing it. Do the heat exchangers have any paperwork that defines its max rated continuous flow?
Edit, did a quick search on the Gargler and seen this on the Engineering Toolbox site:
"The water velocity in a copper tube should be kept within certain limits to avoid erosion, corrosion and excessive noise generation.
in cold water systems - the velocities should not exceed 8 feet per second (2.4 m/s)
in hot water systems with temperatures below 140 oF (60 oC) - the velocities should not exceed 5 feet per second (1.5 m/s)
in hot water systems with temperatures above 140 oF (60 oC) - the velocities should not exceed 2 feet per second (0.6 m/s)
Note - be aware - and take care of - that local velocities in small tubes, bends and similar obstructions may exceed the values above."
And running some quick calculations with the help of a GPM to velocity calculator I come up with 90 gpm through a 1.75" pipe = 12 ft/s
I'm not sure how much harder cupronickel is over hard copper pipe but I would still be concerned about the life of the heat exchangers at that flow.
Hopefully I am going overboard and everything is well within the limits
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Somewhere I have the details. Lenco drew em up based off of hp and cubic inches comparable to a 1200hp BBC. He wanted to do 5" x 27" .. but we only have 24" between the plates and mounts. So we recalculated to 6" dia and shorter length.
This seawater side is 2 stages out at 1.5" min thru the 6" charge cooler into the main exchanger and out. The 3rd stage seawater at 1.25" min does oil, fuel, trans, ps, and gear reduction coolers, then out to the headers. At least that's how were gonna start...
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This seawater side is 2 stages out at 1.5" min thru the 6" charge cooler into the main exchanger and out. The 3rd stage seawater at 1.25" min does oil, fuel, trans, ps, and gear reduction coolers, then out to the headers. At least that's how were gonna start...
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Good math, just change that seawater pipe to 1.5" dia at 90gpm 
And the coolers are double pass so the actual diameter of the copper contact area will be like 3" total or about. It's actually like 80 x 1/8"dia tubes inside.
I've seen this same charge cooler core used on other 750hp marine diesels fed with 1.5" lines, along with a similar main heat exchanger setup. I think those have around a 400hr rebuild cycle. But will definitely inquire more. Salt water is corosive as fruk anyways. I'm guessing 5yrs tops and they gotta be replaced.
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And the coolers are double pass so the actual diameter of the copper contact area will be like 3" total or about. It's actually like 80 x 1/8"dia tubes inside.I've seen this same charge cooler core used on other 750hp marine diesels fed with 1.5" lines, along with a similar main heat exchanger setup. I think those have around a 400hr rebuild cycle. But will definitely inquire more. Salt water is corosive as fruk anyways. I'm guessing 5yrs tops and they gotta be replaced.
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Got the oil cooler fittings figured out. A 45 into a 90 lines up perfect with the filter housing, but causes tight fit on a water pump exit.. But for today, it's good enough to get the oil flowing to fire this one up..
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I'm scared too...
Actually it's been setting on 2 half inch bolts and a block of wood for past week. See pix. Been afraid to even breathe on it.. lol.
Had to modify those mounting plates, and how the cart wheels bolt up to clear this new stuff. Just got wheels back yesterday, now I can roll it outside so as not to burn down the house.
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Actually it's been setting on 2 half inch bolts and a block of wood for past week. See pix. Been afraid to even breathe on it.. lol.
Had to modify those mounting plates, and how the cart wheels bolt up to clear this new stuff. Just got wheels back yesterday, now I can roll it outside so as not to burn down the house.
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Got her back safely on 4 wheels, oil cooler and filter housing mounted , and the 12AN lines cut to fit.
Now to tear everthing off again, clean out lines, tighter the male fittings, hopefully remember to remove plugs behind the block adapter, fill it with oil and see if she makes pressure tomorrow.
Look, no lines rubbing either. Can't believe it myself..
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Now to tear everthing off again, clean out lines, tighter the male fittings, hopefully remember to remove plugs behind the block adapter, fill it with oil and see if she makes pressure tomorrow.
Look, no lines rubbing either. Can't believe it myself..
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Sweet! Looks great, can't wait to see it run. If it runs half as good as it looks, you'll have a winner.
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First one runs.. Strapped it to my buddies tractor since I didn't trust those cart wheels.
Sounds nasty uncapped...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAZH8bZEzEs
Sounds nasty uncapped...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAZH8bZEzEs
That's from first 20 seconds running on stock tuning with only 12 connections. crank, cam, FP sensor, FPR, and injectors... Oh, I forgot, and throttle. Rest was just POTs wired in to fake sensors values to get it fired up.
I'd say she'll clean up with a little work. But I hear those oval bowls are a bit foggy when cold.
I'd say she'll clean up with a little work. But I hear those oval bowls are a bit foggy when cold.