I don't have a side as both arguments make sence to me
I found instruction that said the oposite of what your did. So I don't know what the **** to belive:rofl:
read me the instructions ver batim.
Help: torquing converter bolts
- Thread starter maine04max
- Start date
read me the instructions ver batim.
Neither. I ment just what I said. But I will rephrase. I know plenty on MEs that know less than you. But I didn't what to put it like that because it sounds derogatory.
Extensions SHOULD NOT BE USED under any circumstances. Their use will result in erroneous torque readings.
nvmind Im stupid, I didnt read it correctly, sorry paul.
No, your not stupid. You made a mistake, just like an ME can do as well
:hug:my bets are that they are refering to an extension as a crowsfoot etc not the type of extension we are using.
a crows foot extends the center to center distance of the fastener being torqued so its far from accurate unless you calculate the advantage of the extra length.
I just went out and torqued one of the side bolts on my main caps. I used a 6" extension and torqued it to 86 lb ft. I then removed the extension and the torque wrench clicked without the bolt turning at all.
Yes that the difference between kinetic and static friction.
Does not apply to what we are talking about.
It will take more to break it looose than the initial torque setting. You need to tighten and loosen both with an extension and without.
Does not apply to what we are talking about.
It will take more to break it looose than the initial torque setting. You need to tighten and loosen both with an extension and without.
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do you have any adapters so that you could use 3/8" extensions with your wrench that have some twist to them.... maybe like 18" long extension...
just want to prove this with the worst case scenario.... even though some of the engineer's be trade will continue to argue it forever....
I just did the same test as josh and big surprise, when I did it with a bunch of extensions it was exactly the same. As if I expected it to be different....but I have pictures im loading now for the people who still dont beleive me.
ben
ben
ok HERE!!!!!
I made a ghetto torque angle meter, to measure how much the bolt is "turned" when torqued to 70 ft lbs, as set by my torque wrench. Sorry pat its not a 48,000 dollar torque angle meter, or a 79,000 dollar torque wrench, so I guess my experiment was pointless, but It did make me feel better.
first I did a test with just a shallow socket, torque wrench set to 70 ft lbs, and marked where that turned the bolt to, as you can see where I marked the reference point with the blue sharpie.
Then I added a bunch of 1/2" extensions I had. Sorry its not super long, and I didnt have any 3/8" adapters.
Then I loosened the bolt (with a ratchet, so as not to disturb the torque wrench setting), and retorqued it to the same "70 ft lbs", except this time I had all the extensions on it.
And ZOMG it clicked when the bolt got to the SAME position/angle!!!!!!!!!!! (As If I was expecting something completely different)
ben
I made a ghetto torque angle meter, to measure how much the bolt is "turned" when torqued to 70 ft lbs, as set by my torque wrench. Sorry pat its not a 48,000 dollar torque angle meter, or a 79,000 dollar torque wrench, so I guess my experiment was pointless, but It did make me feel better.
first I did a test with just a shallow socket, torque wrench set to 70 ft lbs, and marked where that turned the bolt to, as you can see where I marked the reference point with the blue sharpie.
Then I added a bunch of 1/2" extensions I had. Sorry its not super long, and I didnt have any 3/8" adapters.
Then I loosened the bolt (with a ratchet, so as not to disturb the torque wrench setting), and retorqued it to the same "70 ft lbs", except this time I had all the extensions on it.
And ZOMG it clicked when the bolt got to the SAME position/angle!!!!!!!!!!! (As If I was expecting something completely different)
ben
This a great subject and I love all the answers. You have not convinced me Ben. I will do some tests Tues at the shop.
On the practical application I am going to have to agree with Mike and Pat, but on the physics I'm going to have to agree with Ben on this one.
I will have to point out though that comparing the torsion bar to an ratchet extension is like comparing apples to oranges. The torsion bar is more along the lines of a torque stick. An extension is meant to be rigid whereas a torque stick and torsion bar are meant to "spring". If our torsion bars were rigid, we would have one heck of a shitty ride.
The reason many torque wrench instructions say do not use adapters or extensions is because they know idiots will try using a 1/4" extension on a 5/8" bolt and it will deflect and the chances of remaining perpendicular to the bolt decreases. One way to guarantee this does not happen is to not "allow" extensions. Also as the extension deflects, the amount of input torque does not equal the output torque, but the second deflection ends, input torque = output torque....or a broken extension. The ability to sense the exact moment of a "click" is also greatly reduced when deflection has occurred which is another reason for many torque wrench manufacturers shying away from stating extension can/should be used.
Energy is neither created nor destroyed. As Mike stated, the twist in an extension is transitioned energy AS IT DEFLECTS (usually seen as heat), once the deflection ends though, torque in = torque out. If we lost X amount of torque over Y amount of feet, there would be a point where no torque would be transmitted and we know that to be false.
All that being said, everyone is right to a point (practicality vs reality) as with each connection you cannot guarantee torque in = torque out and each and every connection introduces angularity and the possibility for error.
I haven't removed/installed torque converter bolts on an Allison. I have heard you do it through the starter opening. I do not know if this allows a straight line access to the bolt. If it does not, a torque wrench will only give you a close approximation anyways.
If it's a straight shot, you could "theorectically" use a rigid extension that was 60' long as long as you kept it perpendicular to the fastener, but that is impractical (due to the core support being in the way). Due to variations in thickness, material quality, etc. in extension/adapter designs. It is wise to use no adapters and/or extensions but if you do need to use them, use the shortest and most twist resistant extension available with the least amount of adapters/connections possible that allows perpendicular access to the bolt to reduce the introduction of un-necessary variables.
Let's all get along :hug:
I will have to point out though that comparing the torsion bar to an ratchet extension is like comparing apples to oranges. The torsion bar is more along the lines of a torque stick. An extension is meant to be rigid whereas a torque stick and torsion bar are meant to "spring". If our torsion bars were rigid, we would have one heck of a shitty ride
.The reason many torque wrench instructions say do not use adapters or extensions is because they know idiots will try using a 1/4" extension on a 5/8" bolt and it will deflect and the chances of remaining perpendicular to the bolt decreases. One way to guarantee this does not happen is to not "allow" extensions. Also as the extension deflects, the amount of input torque does not equal the output torque, but the second deflection ends, input torque = output torque....or a broken extension. The ability to sense the exact moment of a "click" is also greatly reduced when deflection has occurred which is another reason for many torque wrench manufacturers shying away from stating extension can/should be used.
Energy is neither created nor destroyed. As Mike stated, the twist in an extension is transitioned energy AS IT DEFLECTS (usually seen as heat), once the deflection ends though, torque in = torque out. If we lost X amount of torque over Y amount of feet, there would be a point where no torque would be transmitted and we know that to be false.
All that being said, everyone is right to a point (practicality vs reality) as with each connection you cannot guarantee torque in = torque out and each and every connection introduces angularity and the possibility for error.
I haven't removed/installed torque converter bolts on an Allison. I have heard you do it through the starter opening. I do not know if this allows a straight line access to the bolt. If it does not, a torque wrench will only give you a close approximation anyways.
If it's a straight shot, you could "theorectically" use a rigid extension that was 60' long as long as you kept it perpendicular to the fastener, but that is impractical (due to the core support being in the way). Due to variations in thickness, material quality, etc. in extension/adapter designs. It is wise to use no adapters and/or extensions but if you do need to use them, use the shortest and most twist resistant extension available with the least amount of adapters/connections possible that allows perpendicular access to the bolt to reduce the introduction of un-necessary variables.
Let's all get along :hug:
Someone reading this must a have a tq wrench and a few extra min
I just tried it with about 8 extensions even one with a wobble on it and Tourqued a bolt to 20ft/lbs.
The tq was the same,When I tried it.
Still being a stubborn man I will avoid useing extensions when TQing
You guys need to really chill out its just a disscussion:happy2:
After some thought on the subject:
I doubt it has anything to do with extension torsional flex.
It has everything to do with force vectors.
When using normal sockets and rachets, I see this:
You often must use two hands when using an extension, yet you can easily loosen the same bolt with a short socket or open end wrench of the same length, one-handed. You never seem to apply as much umph when using the extensions. Is it imagination?
Nope. Think about where you really want the force to be. It must be on the hex, perpendicular to the shaft. Down low (no extensions), you are nearly lined up with the target. Up high (with extensions), your force is actually trying to push the socket off the bolt sideways; tip it over. Your second hand tried to resist that force, and actually pushes back against your torquing hand. How much force is being used up? If your second hand was infinitely small, infinitely strong, and exactly on the axis the bolt, then none, your second hand would act like a bearing. But it's not. It is resisting the torque of the rachet.
What Mike is saying is old as dirt. I learned it in the 1970's, and it was old then.
Does anyone disagree you can loosen a too tight bolt easier without extensions?
I doubt it has anything to do with extension torsional flex.
It has everything to do with force vectors.
When using normal sockets and rachets, I see this:
You often must use two hands when using an extension, yet you can easily loosen the same bolt with a short socket or open end wrench of the same length, one-handed. You never seem to apply as much umph when using the extensions. Is it imagination?
Nope. Think about where you really want the force to be. It must be on the hex, perpendicular to the shaft. Down low (no extensions), you are nearly lined up with the target. Up high (with extensions), your force is actually trying to push the socket off the bolt sideways; tip it over. Your second hand tried to resist that force, and actually pushes back against your torquing hand. How much force is being used up? If your second hand was infinitely small, infinitely strong, and exactly on the axis the bolt, then none, your second hand would act like a bearing. But it's not. It is resisting the torque of the rachet.
What Mike is saying is old as dirt. I learned it in the 1970's, and it was old then.
Does anyone disagree you can loosen a too tight bolt easier without extensions?
I just tried it with about 8 extensions even one with a wobble on it and Tourqued a bolt to 20ft/lbs.
The tq was the same,When I tried it.
Still being a stubborn man I will avoid useing extensions when TQing
You guys need to really chill out its just a disscussion:happy2:
Im chilled out now.
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