Help: torquing converter bolts

[McRat]

Funny, when I put in a stiffer torsion bar, the front the truck goes up, even though the torque the front wheel applies to it is constant. A micrometer style torque wrench has a rotational mechanism as well. You might be correct when using beam style wrenches, but they are less common.

Extension flex is just one component though. The greater the distance from the nut the head is, the more important to hold the tool perfectly perpendicular becomes. I guarantee you that with extension(s) on, you cannot get the same torque repeatably without a jig to hold the wrench perp.

 

[McRat]

PS - I learned this information years ago in the aircraft industry in a metrology lab. They are very specific about what extensions you can use on critical components, and the answer is none when calibrating the wrenches.

 

[McRat]

...and when I say REAL engineer, I mean someone who actually has a piece of paper that says "so and so graduated from so and so university with a 4 year degree in mech engineering". NOT someone who is an armchair engineer/engineer by trade/someone who has read some books/someone who knows someone who knows someone who is an engineer, and other 'fake' engineers.

ben

If "real" engineers know everything, then why do they come to my laboratory every day (for 15 years) to get my opinion on how things measure, and how to measure things?

 

[Osubeaver]

Okay Pat..... lay it out. Why does an extension matter?

I'm all for being wrong on this.

How about some math/physics?

 

[sweetdiesel]

So Ben is wrong and Wolford is right?



:sucks2:

 

[duratothemax]

Funny, when I put in a stiffer torsion bar, the front the truck goes up, even though the torque the front wheel applies to it is constant. .

What does that have to do with anything? Thats a completely different situation from what we are talking about.

THe stiffer torsion bar "raises" the front because a stiffer torsion bar requires more torque to twist a certain amount of degrees. If the lower control arms impart say 800 ft lbs of torque on a torsion bar, say it twists it 30*, which gives you X ride height. Then you put in a stiffer torsion bar. Well yeah, the LCA is still imparting 800 ft lbs on the bar, but because the bar is stiffer, its only going to turn 20* with that same 800 ft lbs of torque on it...thus giving you a higher ride height.

Again, I dont know what that has to do with anything; thats not a valid argument to what we are talking about because its a completely different situation.

A micrometer style torque wrench has a rotational mechanism as well. You might be correct when using beam style wrenches, but they are less common.

Extension flex is just one component though. The greater the distance from the nut the head is, the more important to hold the tool perfectly perpendicular becomes. I guarantee you that with extension(s) on, you cannot get the same torque repeatably without a jig to hold the wrench perp.

So you are saying if I torque one bolt to 100 ft lbs with a micrometer style torque wrench, and another bolt to 100 ft lbs with a beam style torque wrench, they are going to be torqued differently?????

 

[JoshH]

I just went out to the shop to grab my torque wrench so I could do some tests. When I opened the box I saw the instructions there, so I gave them a look. There was some very pertinent information I thought I would share. Keep in mind, this is a Craftsman torque wrench, so I don't know if this is what some of you would consider a "quality" torque wrench. Anyway...

*When using long sockets or extensions, the wrench may be supported at the head (only at the head) with only negligible effects on accuracy.

NOTE: Regular socket extensions which extend directly under the drive head along the axis of rotation of the ratchet do not affect the calibration of the torque wrench.

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

I mean someone who actually has a piece of paper that says "so and so graduated from so and so university with a 4 year degree in mech engineering". NOT someone who is an armchair engineer/engineer by trade

ben

I'm not sure what makes for a "real" ME but everyone I have met fits both things you put in bold.

I don't know the correct answer to this but I do know that MEs make just as many mistakes as anyone else, just many of them are called revs:hug:


Someone reading this must a have a tq wrench and a few extra min

 

[duratothemax]

If "real" engineers know everything, then why do they come to my laboratory every day (for 15 years) to get my opinion on how things measure, and how to measure things?

I cant answer that.

So what you are saying is there is no point in actually going to school to be an engineer? And if someone study's at a university for a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering, they wasted their time and money because they could have learned it all the same "on the job" in the real world? If this was 100 years ago, maybe, but not today.

thats a different argument for another day and thread though. No engineers dont know everything, but I think its a safe bet that they (Ive read some books because I was curious about a couple "mechanical-engineer-ish" things, but im not an ME) do know more than someone without that stamped piece of paper.

ben

 

[McRat]

Okay Pat..... lay it out. Why does an extension matter?

I'm all for being wrong on this.

How about some math/physics?

It is simply pragmatic tool usage. They came up with loss numbers based on observation I suppose.

But that is interesting.

Does a spring heat up when cycled?

Does a torsion bar?

Where did the energy come from if the force and rotation was the same?

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

I just went out to the shop to grab my torque wrench so I could do some tests. When I opened the box I saw the instructions there, so I gave them a look. There was some very pertinent information I thought I would share. Keep in mind, this is a Craftsman torque wrench, so I don't know if this is what some of you would consider a "quality" torque wrench. Anyway...

*When using long sockets or extensions, the wrench may be supported at the head (only at the head) with only negligible effects on accuracy.

NOTE: Regular socket extensions which extend directly under the drive head along the axis of rotation of the ratchet do not affect the calibration of the torque wrench.

I did a search on the net and found directions that said different things How did the test go?

 

[duratothemax]

I just went out to the shop to grab my torque wrench so I could do some tests. When I opened the box I saw the instructions there, so I gave them a look. There was some very pertinent information I thought I would share. Keep in mind, this is a Craftsman torque wrench, so I don't know if this is what some of you would consider a "quality" torque wrench. Anyway...

*When using long sockets or extensions, the wrench may be supported at the head (only at the head) with only negligible effects on accuracy.

NOTE: Regular socket extensions which extend directly under the drive head along the axis of rotation of the ratchet do not affect the calibration of the torque wrench.

ding ding we have a winner, big surprise. You support it at the head to prevent the slop in extensions from going off at an angle (like a u-joint) which WILL affect torque accuracy...but as long as you keep the damn thing perpendicular at a 90* angle on the "Z-axis", the torque isnt gonna frikkin change, like ive been saying all along.

but, as Josh said, its "only craftsman", so they are probably wrong.

ben

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

I cant answer that.

So what you are saying is there is no point in actually going to school to be an engineer? And if someone study's at a university for a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering, they wasted their time and money because they could have learned it all the same "on the job" in the real world? If this was 100 years ago, maybe, but not today.

thats a different argument for another day and thread though. No engineers dont know everything, but I think its a safe bet that they (Ive read some books because I was curious about a couple "mechanical-engineer-ish" things, but im not an ME) do know more than someone without that stamped piece of paper.

ben

I know plenty on MEs that you know more than

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

It is simply pragmatic tool usage. They came up with loss numbers based on observation I suppose.

But that is interesting.

Does a spring heat up when cycled?

Does a torsion bar?

Where did the energy come from if the force and rotation was the same?

The rotation isn't the the same. You must "push" further (turn more degrees) to reach the tq because you are tranfering energy into the extention.

 

[JoshH]

I did a search on the net and found directions that said different things How did the test go?

I didn't do the test. I figured the instructions would be good enough to settle the argument, but if I need to, I can go back out and torque some bolts with and without an extension.

 

[duratothemax]

So Ben is wrong and Wolford is right?



:sucks2:

wolford was agreeing with me...no?

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

I didn't do the test. I figured the instructions would be good enough to settle the argument, but if I need to, I can go back out and torque some bolts with and without an extension.

I don't have a side as both arguments make sence to me

I found instruction that said the oposite of what your did. So I don't know what the **** to belive:rofl:

 

[Rhall]

I cant answer that.

So what you are saying is there is no point in actually going to school to be an engineer? And if someone study's at a university for a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering, they wasted their time and money because they could have learned it all the same "on the job" in the real world? If this was 100 years ago, maybe, but not today.

thats a different argument for another day and thread though. No engineers dont know everything, but I think its a safe bet that they (Ive read some books because I was curious about a couple "mechanical-engineer-ish" things, but im not an ME) do know more than someone without that stamped piece of paper.

ben

I disagree, in the elevator trade, the engineers put there heads together to make new designs everyday, they send it out in the field cause it looked great on paper, well guess what, it didnt work, you know where they get their best advice to make it work? The card carrying field guys. They call the field guys every day getting advice, ive known personally several field mechanics that have been offered engineer jobs but have turned them down because our benifets/retirement/and pay is better in the field. Not saying that everyone that has this piece of "paper" wasted their time, just saying that your last sentence is completley incorrect. Edit, this has nothing to do with the original argument.... sorry for the ot

 

[JoshH]

Ok. I'll run back out to the shop and torque a bolt with and without an extension. Give me a minute.

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

On second thought I don't know why I am even posting about this as I pretty much never use a tq wrech for anything. Just head studs, mains, rods and that kind of stuff. None of which requires an extention:happy2: