Info: TCM tuning

GMC_2002_Dmax

The Still Master
The reason you see more negative about that particular tuner here than you do on DP is because some of the people in power here have a problem with him for one reason or another. Anyone who is unpopular is frequently brought up in a negative light. I did run the infamous flexy rods that he sold. I have spent a lot of money fixing it correctly, but we came to an agreement we both felt was fair. The compensation I got did not cover all my epxenses, but I take partial blame for running an unproven product. I gambled and lost; now I'm over it. It's not the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last. In the end, I learned a valuable lesson that I will never forget.

Furthermore, I'll come right out and say that I'm not totally convinced that the tables in question are what caused the failure. I'm sure there are a lot of people that have run the tune being blamed without issue, but now all of a sudden it must be removed immediately because of imminent danger. Kind of reminds me of all the people that get all upset and worried about things like swine flu. People get sick, and parts break. Sometimes it just happens.

In the end, people recommend tuning they've had good luck with and usually don't recommend what they've had problems with. The only tuner I've ever recommended is IdahoRob because I have ran some of his tunes, and I know they work. I don't run anyone elses tunes because I refuse to pay for something I can do myself. If a "professional tuner" wants to tune my truck, I'll pay for the tune if he can make my truck faster than I can, but I doubt anyone is going to take that bet as I have a lot more free time to spend on logging and tuning than someone who runs a tuning business.

I guess I must be the most un-popular guy at the Place then, because more negative shit was said about me by SOUP-MAN than anyone else besides PAT and even Pat got his lifetime ban lifted, so I guess I have the honor of that title, I WON............:rolleyes:

You keep telling yourself your not convinced and keep running that type of tune and check back with us when you need a Planet or Hub or new clutches, we'll be here to remind you we warned you.

OH,

Your last comment I highlighted, I'll be your huckleberry.........;)
 
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TheBac

Why do I keep doing this?
Staff member
Apr 19, 2008
15,617
1,875
113
Mid Michigan
Tom,

Proper de-fuel is getting TBIQ, Base TQ, TLIQ, and main pulse w & w/o pilot correct.

The TPS% vs the Tq value and then the look-up for TLIQ is the three tables that wil get you there.

:hug:

Maybe I'll start on a spreadsheet set up that you can copy-paste the TBIQ and Base TQ table into and it would calulate TLIQ. It could have another box that you put in the % of defuel you want, then you could do it by % or you could put 0% then subtract a set number from the whole table.

There is a TQ PID...........it is a DMA pid,

:cool:

Im going to go back to these posts, before the bitch session started, and ask some questions...

What am I looking for in these tables exactly?
How do these tables interact that causes the tune to defuel or not?
Besides the TQ pid, what other pids should I log to see how these tables are working?
Do I need to log at WOT, or is logging at normal driving speeds sufficient?
After I log these and get some information, just exactly what am I supposed to do to fix the issue?
Is there some sort of "comparative table" that helps me figure out how to fix this?




If you ask them they know everything............:eek:.............except when something goes wrong, then they don't know anything.

:help:

Then maybe its time to stop the bs and start giving people a hand to fix this. Frankly, Im sick of this secrecy bullshit. 99.9999999% of us dont have the first inkling of "whats happening in the back rooms" because nobody with that knowledge bothers to share it with the general public until it is convenient for them. Start helping, or continue to be part of the problem because making a buck is more important than stopping the damage done by someone else.
 
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GMC_2002_Dmax

The Still Master
Im going to go back to these posts. before the bitch session started, and ask some questions...

What am I looking for in these tables exactly?
How do these tables interact that causes the tune to defuel or not?
Besides the TQ pid, what other pids should I log to see how these tables are working?
Do I need to log at WOT, or is logging at normal driving speeds sufficient?
After I log these and get some information, just exactly what am I supposed to do to fix the issue?






Then maybe its time to stop the bs and start giving people a hand to fix this. Enough with the secrecy bullshit. 99.9999999% of us dont have the first inkling of "whats happening in the back rooms" because nobody with that knowledge bothers to share it with the general public. Start helping, or continue to be part of the problem because making a buck is more important than stopping the damage done by someone else.

Without sounding like I am trying to be an asshole, which I am not I will give you and everyone else the following answer.

I did not get an instruction manual on how to tune a durmamx diesel, it did not come with the cable and software, I HAD TO SPEND THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND THOUSANDS OF CHANGES on my own truck to figure it out.

Why then with all the Johnny-Come-Lately tuners would I write a instruction manual to tell the so-called experts how to fix what they are doing wrong ???

I simply will not give that info out, it's of no benefit to me to tell everyone "how" I figured out what I did.

As far as making a buck, I didn't whore the market out and I still make a good buck at what I do because what I do is safe and it works, I have enough trucks out there making 800-1000 HP to know that I won't be giving that info away anytime soon, especially when things like this happen and your tune won't work properly when you re-enabled the tcm protections that were removed.

The problem is this Tom, everyone want everything for nothing and my time is worth more to me than what a lot of people want to pay, so in the end they pick a cheaper way to get what they want, you my friend could have had a MOONSHINE tune, but you declined it 2 years ago, so I don't know what to tell you :confused:

I am here to offer my time but I am not drawing anyone a road map.

;)
 

TrentNell

Finally underway !!!!!
Jul 7, 2008
7,543
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slc tuah
Just for all those in this thread , i have a truck at my house right now with blown out ( like litterally ) C2 clutches . guess what they lasted 700 miles and 6 runs down the strip . no mechanical problem was found with anything related to c-2 clutches failing and they were "alto clutches" . we have other things we found wrong that are being correct while were in there but are unrelated to the reason it failed .

The TCM tune that was in it had all the things in it that are being warned to you all not to use he didnt know better and was told by a few other people that it would fix his shifts .

I am no expert but the fact that he has went through 2 transmissions in about 10 runs down the strip i say pretty much seals the deal on it not being a hard part issue, the last trans was a ATS , this trans wasnt the best kinda a custom Job a guy put together for him that matched a sucoast 4 clutch setup wise . but like i said we found nothing mechanically wrong with anything related to the C-2's . If i have missed something that could have caused them to fail please correct me Mike . Mike has been kind enough to help us out on this :hug: both the ATS and this trans both failed the same way , C-2 clutch failure .

the truck in question is a high power truck in the range of 850-900 hp on the bottle and the runs were 11.0 range @ 126mph but that goes to show how this problems rears its head as the power increases .
 
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TrentNell

Finally underway !!!!!
Jul 7, 2008
7,543
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slc tuah
And as far as sharing info goes , i cant speak for all but the info i have is not mine to share, the only reason i know the proper way is because Rob corrected it in my tuning and i seen the changes before and after and the end result. That info and fix does not belong to me.

I am shure that is the case with most people, and i agree with Tony, why would he give out something that was so hard to learn for free, if people want his expertease they should have to pay for it , or put in the hard work of learning how to do it them selves .
 

stacks04

Member
Nov 16, 2007
792
0
16
Terryville,Ct
all i can say is up until a year or so ago those tables werent available to change. people have been making 5-6-700 hp and running great times before that. why risk having things go wrong by doing it the easy way when you can have things done the harder "right" way and have the hard parts last.
 

McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
11,249
26
38
64
Norco CA
www.mcratracing.com
First, please no more namecalling by anyone. Tech is Tech.

I seldom change anything but RPM on a trans tune because it's always worked for me. Back when I played with other changes, my timeslips did not improve, and since shifting wasn't a problem, I worked on other things.

About the "TunerWars"...

This has been going on since Dmaxes were first hotrodded. "Bastard Stack vs. TTS" was perhaps the first battle, and it continues to this day. With the advent of EFILive, the number of tuners exploded, which is something many of us predicted back when it was just an idea. Guy Tripp was pretty much responsible for EFILive exploring Duramax tuning, and it's the best single change in Duramax performance (for the racers) since the first Edge box. So it's ALL GUY'S FAULT!!! :D

With EFILive, along came many ethical and philosophical questions:

The people who fought against EFILive support for our trucks were telling us racers that we should not have better tools and technology for our trucks. Some threatened lawsuits against EFILive to try and scare them from the market. These people I have true contempt for. How dare they try and tell us how we can modify our trucks? Schmucks. They should worry about their own racing, not ours.

Tune-sharing is common. It betters the breed. But it's also unethical if the tune was a commercial product sold to just one customer. To build a tune right, you need to spend hours on a dyno, and at the track. It's not cheap. People who say they developed max-effort tunes by "seat of the pants" are fibbing. What feels fast, often isn't. "Pipey" tunes hit you big rush, and feel violent, but a tune with equal peak power, but more area under the curve, won't feel as fast by seat of the pants. The dyno time should be paid for to use that tune.

Tune sharing is based on "unlocked" tunes, which causes the lion's share of the fighting among EFILive users. There are two philosophies on this, neither is right or wrong, just different. My tuning has always been unlocked. I've been critized a lot about this. I was one of the first to include an unlocked racing tune with EFILive sales for free. I had had problems with locked tunes on our Corvette and Camaro, so I treat others as I want to be treated, and do not lock them. My goal was to push EFILive aggressively to the racers, so that the crew at EFILive would see that Duramax support was critical to their company. It is possible that without aggressive marketing EFILive to the racers, that EFILive would not have supported LBZ+, which was a huge expense in development for EFILive. But there are shops that do lock their tunes because the expense of developing custom tuning is very high, and they want to protect their investment. This is very smart from a business perspective. To be honest, even though I sold hundreds of seats of EFILive, expenses exceed profits still. But it did accomplish my goal, which was to get better tools for Duramaxes.

It's pretty rare to read a post by me trashing other people's tuning. It's counter productive. There was a time when the main battle was to Whup The Dodges, but now sometimes it seems we just want to beat each other up. At some point, there will be so many shops selling EFILive and unlocked tuning, that tuning files will become virtually public domain. Then the folk we call bastards today, will all be in the same boat, yet we will be enemies insteads of fellow racers. It's just as hard to put toothpaste back in the tube as to "uninsult" somebody.

So discuss tech, but leave the smack talk for the Dodge guys.
 

Big Block 88

Multiple choice muscle
Nov 3, 2008
4,665
0
36
38
Kansas when I am home
Very well said Pat, I have purchased tuning from you and did notice it was unlocked. But myself and many others are of the practice of not handing out tuning that we paid for and someone worked hard to create. The tuners like Tony, yourself and others need to make a living too. So in my opinion Tony is right he has worked hard to and put in alot of hours to get where he is now, yourself and other included. It would not be right for me to go out and hand out the race tune I got from you. It just boils down to a persons ethics.
 

TIM Z

Screwed by 0087s
Jan 17, 2009
1,574
0
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Navarre, OH
Good post Pat,

Im thankful for all the Dmax enthusists / racers out there who have made the dmax what it is today. good or bad

With out all of the testing, racing , time that you guys have spent, these trucks wouldnt have come as far and be as awesome as they are today. So thanks to all responsible:)

IMO, people who buy and share tuning are only as good as the morals they have, I am more than happy to Tell people about my Tuning, But i would never let some one copy it with out paying the person who wrote it. Even for my friends. If i want to share it would be a tune i would try to make (IM A LONG WAY FROM THAT!) :eek:
 

Duramax 6.6L

Member
Nov 23, 2006
123
0
16
Esperance, NY
I took the time to read every post in this thread hoping to find an answer for a problem that I am having with de-fuel. After reading all of this info, I have learned quite a bit on this matter.

One thing that I find interesting is that you have a few guys stating that with the LBZ, a de-fuel problem can not programed out in the ecm. Quite a few of you are stating that it is a very bad idea to alter the tcm for the de-fuel problem. If it is true that you can not effectively tune the de-fuel out with the ecm and it is a bad idea to alter the tcm, then how would you go about fixing the problem.

I have been logging and trying to fix the de-fuel problem for a few months now, and I have gotten closer to a solution, but I can not hit the nail on the head as to the problem.

I have meet with and talked with GMC_2002_DMAX and have found that he is very knowledgeable in what he does. Using his info to look at this, I am getting closer.

Proper de-fuel is getting TBIQ, Base TQ, TLIQ, and main pulse w & w/o pilot correct.

The TPS% vs the Tq value and then the look-up for TLIQ is the three tables that wil get you there.

I hope that I am using the correct tables that he referenced. I am hoping that he could list the table numbers. Thank you for the info.
 

GMC_2002_Dmax

The Still Master
LBZ/LMM ecm's do not work the same way as the LB7/LLY ecm's as far as de-fuel is addressed.

They do have the same tables in the tcm to disable the torque requests as it is still an Allison transmission. These are the tables we are discussing and the dangers of removing the de-fuel requests.

The tables you are looking for I described are for the LB7/LLY ecms and they do not exist in the LBZ/LMM ecms, at least in the way the Delphi ecm looks up values for fuel, etc are done differently in the Bosch ecm's.

Your problem has to be addressed in a differen't way. I am evaluating what needs to be done on my 2007 LBZ to correct an excessive de-fuel on the LBZ/LMM ecms..........;).........and it doesn't involve disabling tcm tables.

:D
 

duratothemax

<--- slippery roads
Aug 28, 2006
7,139
10
0
Wyoming
LBZ/LMM ecm's do not work the same way as the LB7/LLY ecm's as far as de-fuel is addressed.

They do have the same tables in the tcm to disable the torque requests as it is still an Allison transmission. These are the tables we are discussing and the dangers of removing the de-fuel requests.

The tables you are looking for I described are for the LB7/LLY ecms and they do not exist in the LBZ/LMM ecms, at least in the way the Delphi ecm looks up values for fuel, etc are done differently in the Bosch ecm's.

Your problem has to be addressed in a differen't way. I am evaluating what needs to be done on my 2007 LBZ to correct an excessive de-fuel on the LBZ/LMM ecms..........;).........and it doesn't involve disabling tcm tables.

:D

come on tony you cant tell me LB7 and LLY ECM's are the same as far as defuel/limiting tables goes! :D :eek:
 

lotsofmiles

Father of the Van
Dec 4, 2008
3,097
0
0
Michigan
been meaning to check my trans tune.... Either I dont know what I'm looking for or the 4l85e doesnt have those defueling options in the trans tune?
 

TheBac

Why do I keep doing this?
Staff member
Apr 19, 2008
15,617
1,875
113
Mid Michigan
Without sounding like I am trying to be an asshole, which I am not I will give you and everyone else the following answer.

I did not get an instruction manual on how to tune a durmamx diesel, it did not come with the cable and software, I HAD TO SPEND THOUSANDS OF HOURS AND THOUSANDS OF CHANGES on my own truck to figure it out.

Why then with all the Johnny-Come-Lately tuners would I write a instruction manual to tell the so-called experts how to fix what they are doing wrong ???

I simply will not give that info out, it's of no benefit to me to tell everyone "how" I figured out what I did.

As far as making a buck, I didn't whore the market out and I still make a good buck at what I do because what I do is safe and it works, I have enough trucks out there making 800-1000 HP to know that I won't be giving that info away anytime soon, especially when things like this happen and your tune won't work properly when you re-enabled the tcm protections that were removed.

The problem is this Tom, everyone want everything for nothing and my time is worth more to me than what a lot of people want to pay, so in the end they pick a cheaper way to get what they want, you my friend could have had a MOONSHINE tune, but you declined it 2 years ago, so I don't know what to tell you :confused:

I am here to offer my time but I am not drawing anyone a road map.

;)

You know I declined your Moonshine at Merchant's Spring Fling because I did not want anyone thinking the drawing was rigged in some way. I was helping with the event and my wife had already won the $500 from 50/50 drawing.

Im not asking for a tune for free. Im asking that someone who knows more about EFILive tell me what the heck to look for and compare so I can change it. More like, "If TBIQ is "xxx" amount, then compare the TLIQ table at the same place....it should be within "xx" for that same rpm." Heck, Im still trying to figure out what TBIQ and TLIQ mean. :rolleyes: Im not going to "take it on someone's word" anymore.

I am asking that the bashing of this tuner be stopped, though. Enough is enough.
 

GMC_2002_Dmax

The Still Master
You know I declined your Moonshine at Merchant's Spring Fling because I did not want anyone thinking the drawing was rigged in some way. I was helping with the event and my wife had already won the $500 from 50/50 drawing.

Im not asking for a tune for free. Im asking that someone who knows more about EFILive tell me what the heck to look for and compare so I can change it. More like, "If TBIQ is "xxx" amount, then compare the TLIQ table at the same place....it should be within "xx" for that same rpm." Heck, Im still trying to figure out what TBIQ and TLIQ mean. :rolleyes: Im not going to "take it on someone's word" anymore.

I am asking that the bashing of this tuner be stopped, though. Enough is enough.

Bashing, I didn't bash, I simply stated facts, if you run a disabled TQ request TCM tune you will have trans problems, I don't care where the "tune" came from, but "he" did let it out of BETA, that is a fact.

What you are asking information on is what 99% of tuners are struggling with, its easy to make a tune shift good at WOT, but from 1-99% throttle is where everyone has the trouble. its not so easy to get right as many are finding out.

Your ecm tune that shifted good when the tcm was altered but now it's not shifting so good ??? That proves my point, that a poorly written ecm tune can be masked by a disabled tq request tcm tune but at what consequences to the transmission ??. A quick and dirty fix with expensive consequences.

I was very clear about it when I named the key tables, but I am not offering up what needs to be done to correct it, it took me too long to grasp what is going on and get it figured out to give that away even to help you or anyone out.

Call it an advantge, a secret, whatever.

Jay aka "onebadmax" is running 10.43 at 132+ on an Allison that Dipper built, he has probably over 2 dozen WOT passes and it keeps getting faster and faster, so IMHO the transmission build/ non disabled tq tcm tuning and proper ecm tuning proves that the Ally can live under huge HP...........something that other shops could not do and went to a Dura-Flite to get around it.

Imagine if Jay had a stripped/gutted regular cab where he would be running for ET ??? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm !!!

;)
 
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[email protected]

cmitchell17
Sep 8, 2008
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I think I understand that the TLIQ will be the commanded fueling table during a shift. (What I don't know is how the ECM commands fuel during the end and the beggining of the shift or the duration of the defuel, becuase the defuels on the logs are not abrubt but they smoothly defuel and gradually refuel)

I think I understand that the ecm figures out where it needs to be on the TLIQ by the Base Torque table. So the ecm looks what the rpm and the commanded fuel are, so it knows its making a certain torque value. Then it uses this torque value in the TLIQ table to figure out what the commanded fuel should be during a shift?

My WOT shifts feel smooth, but I do notice at mid high throttle I get really long shifts. Although I am using the shift times in TOW/HAUL, It seems the allison has learned back to its usual shifting.



Making tunes with modified pulsewidths is really hard. I tried to start from over and make a tune where I built the pulsewidth table but I just got really confused?

Anyone ever try to match the TBIQ table with the pulsewidth table? What I mean is modify the TBIQ table to where you get smooth fuel delivery that is proportional to how much you press the throttle?
 

IdahoRob

New member
Jun 5, 2007
1,151
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Jay aka "onebadmax" is running 10.43 at 132+ on an Allison that Dipper built, he has probably over 2 dozen WOT passes and it keeps getting faster and faster, so IMHO the transmission build/ non disabled tq tcm tuning and proper ecm tuning proves that the Ally can live under huge HP...........something that other shops could not do and went to a Dura-Flite to get around it.

Imagine if Jay had a stripped/gutted regular cab where he would be running for ET ??? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm !!!

;)


Congrats to Big Dipper, very cool.

At the standard 200lbs=.10, I'd say he'd be close to 9's.