No not even close.
heres one in use, its a dirt track car part but I think it could do something for us...
this is a forward bite, but same idea...
Suspension ideas...need input please
- Thread starter TheBac
- Start date
heres one in use, its a dirt track car part but I think it could do something for us...
this is a forward bite, but same idea...
Eric and Glen said the exact same thing on Sunday when we were talking about it. Only issue I see is if the threads of the screw could handle the force without deforming. Not being able to rotate the screw would suck.
Interesting idea. That may even help align the snubber with the forward crossmember.
I really dont know. I'm just a UPS driver...:rofl:
That is sort of like a panhard bar. With the top bar and the traction bars, you have the startings of a four-link suspension.
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Until we ditch the leaf springs I think that there isn't much we can do short of playing with shocks and air pressure on these trucks. Any type of snubber to stop axle rotation, regardless of where it's mounted (i.e., snubber bars, pinion stop, etc.) is accomplishing only one thing, minimizing wheel hop.
Mike's diff link, if mounted like the picture of the race car, would help because you're not only minimizing axle wrap, you can direct the power transfer relative to the center of gravity. Like Tom said, more tunable like a 4-link. Any type of biscuit bar, i think, is gonna be a glorified snubber bar if it's not mounted rigid at both ends.
I think CalTracs are still the easiest, simplest answer (although far from perfect), because at least with preload adjustment, you do have some rate control. And you get the "bite" acting closer to the Cg through the front heim rather than through the front spring eye (I think
).
Mike's diff link, if mounted like the picture of the race car, would help because you're not only minimizing axle wrap, you can direct the power transfer relative to the center of gravity. Like Tom said, more tunable like a 4-link. Any type of biscuit bar, i think, is gonna be a glorified snubber bar if it's not mounted rigid at both ends.
I think CalTracs are still the easiest, simplest answer (although far from perfect), because at least with preload adjustment, you do have some rate control. And you get the "bite" acting closer to the Cg through the front heim rather than through the front spring eye (I think
).
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Until we ditch the leaf springs I think that there isn't much we can do short of playing with shocks and air pressure on these trucks. Anything to stop axle rotation, regardless of where it's mounted (i.e., snubber bars, pinion stop, etc.) is accomplishing the only one thing, minimizing wheel hop.
Mike's diff link, if mounted like the picture of the race car, would help because you're not only minimizing axle wrap, you can direct the power transfer relative to the center of gravity. Like Tom said, more tunable like a 4-link. Any type of biscuit bar, i think, is gonna be a glorified snubber bar if it's not mounted rigid at both ends.
I think CalTracs are still the easiest, simplest answer (although far from perfect), because at least with preload adjustment, you do have some rate control. And you get the "bite" acting closer to the Cg through the front heim rather than through the front spring eye (I think
Cal Tracks suck at the power level we run. Way outdated.
Until we ditch the leaf springs I think that there isn't much we can do short of playing with shocks and air pressure on these trucks. Anything to stop axle rotation, regardless of where it's mounted (i.e., snubber bars, pinion stop, etc.) is accomplishing the only one thing, minimizing wheel hop.
Mike's diff link, if mounted like the picture of the race car, would help because you're not only minimizing axle wrap, you can direct the power transfer relative to the center of gravity. Like Tom said, more tunable like a 4-link. Any type of biscuit bar, i think, is gonna be a glorified snubber bar if it's not mounted rigid at both ends.
I think CalTracs are still the easiest, simplest answer (although far from perfect), because at least with preload adjustment, you do have some rate control. And you get the "bite" acting closer to the Cg through the front heim rather than through the front spring eye (I think
Exactly, except not a four link setup. Also see my scenario #1 in my last post what I think about the weight/force with a snubber.
Also the pull bar woul have to be setup as a rear bite setup for us.
Cal tracks dont have enough leverage to with our setup. I think you need at least some long traction bars, then something else once the traction bars start changing direction of the rear axle housing. After mad power the traction bars allow the top of the axle housing to rotate back and create pinion angle to rise up.
I didn't say CalTracs were the be-all end-all for us. I think Tom's original question was regarding a type of pinion snubber in lieu of CalTracs. All I said was that I think CalTracs are marginally better than any type of snubber (for a quick and dirty fix).
I think we're saying about the same thing:
1) Snubbers by themselves, regardless of where located, suck, but they do help in limiting axle wrap.
2) CalTracs are a tiny bit better, but a somewhat longer traction bar would be better. (I didn't say that, but I thought that, so it counts
.)3) The ideal situation is some type of adjustable linkage to tune instant center placement (4-link, your pull bar, etc)
BTW what kind of car is in your pull bar picture?
On edit: Keep in mind that any linkage attached to the axle which is rigidly mounted in front, is going to swing a different arc than a leaf spring mounted rear axle, and bind everything up, so it's all a moot point anyway (except CalTracs
). Unless you put a set of spring floaters on.That's why I started my first post "Until we ditch the leaf springs...."
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This could be a dumb question but I'm going to ask anyway...
What about ladder bars that use the front spring perch?
Wouldn't that stop the housing from twisting, but keep the same arc?
Then you could play with the springs and shocks all you wanted.
What about ladder bars that use the front spring perch?
Wouldn't that stop the housing from twisting, but keep the same arc?
Then you could play with the springs and shocks all you wanted.
That would work, but it's going to give about the same result as CalTracs. If you look at it, the front heim on both would be about in the same proximity.
With both running about $300 or so, not a real advantage. And you could remove the CalTracs and not be stuck with ladder bars welded to your axle
With both running about $300 or so, not a real advantage. And you could remove the CalTracs and not be stuck with ladder bars welded to your axle
Well, I went to Lowes and bought some PVC today, and hope to mock up something tomorrow. Will try Mike's idea, too.
BTW Mike, can you explain (or link me to an explanation) how that bar "bites" either forward or backward? I've been trying to get the idea in my head, but havent understood it.
BTW Mike, can you explain (or link me to an explanation) how that bar "bites" either forward or backward? I've been trying to get the idea in my head, but havent understood it.
So much for being retired
Yeah. Thought it'd be a challenge. Did I ever underestimate that....
Maybe tomorrow night after work I can get under the truck and start measuring things.
Questions about the bar....could we mount it to the top bolts on the back cover, or would that put too much strain on the cover? Do we have to weld the mounts to the pig? Also, is there a certain length this bar has to be? A certain angle it has to be?
Questions on Mike's idea for a snubber platform in front of the pig.... Since many people drill holes in the side flanges of the pig to mount their u-joint shields, could I do something similar by using the u-joint shield and driveshaft hoop to hold the platform that the snubber hits?? Sort of a "kill 2 birds with one stone" type thing?
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all this talk of drag racing setup still has me relating some of these ideas to a successful pulling setup.....therefore i have one big question:
would not running traction bars increase or decrease the chances of bending the frame like during a pull? say you just run suspension stops and a snubber bar, it seems ideal for front-end traction while pulling......but will you be more likely to have problems vs. stops and long bars (mine are approx. 72")? i was trying to work out a 4-link in my head this fall but i gave up for now....maybe simpler is better??
would not running traction bars increase or decrease the chances of bending the frame like during a pull? say you just run suspension stops and a snubber bar, it seems ideal for front-end traction while pulling......but will you be more likely to have problems vs. stops and long bars (mine are approx. 72")? i was trying to work out a 4-link in my head this fall but i gave up for now....maybe simpler is better??
Tom-
Are you solely trying to prevent axle wrap/wheel hop, or are you trying to get some leverage to help plant the tires?
If it's the latter, what does everyone think the differences in mechanical advantage are between a snubber and Cal-Tracs/traction bars?
Are you solely trying to prevent axle wrap/wheel hop, or are you trying to get some leverage to help plant the tires?
If it's the latter, what does everyone think the differences in mechanical advantage are between a snubber and Cal-Tracs/traction bars?
Well, both. I figure one is directly related to the other. Solving wheel hop and axle wrap should also help plant the tires. (at least, I think it should).
I am still under the assumption that even with Caltracs, the center section of our axles still wraps slightly. Theres just so much initial torque that I honestly feel that the axle still twists. Plus, nobody has explored this option yet.
I am not schooled in suspension setup, thats why I posted this thread. I figured I'd find others far more versed on this subject that could help me figure it out. Its all about learning something I dont know much about.
Here's my take.
DISCLAIMER: CALTRACS ARE NOT THE IDEAL SOLUTION TO ACHIEVING TRACTION.
OK, now with that said
, let's assume for a moment that both snubbers and CalTracs do an equal job of reducing (not eliminating) axle wrap. On a leaf spring suspension the instant center (the point on the truck that rear tires push through) is at the front leaf bushing. If you draw a line from the contact patch of the rear tire through the instant center, that is direction of the driving force of the rear tires. The amount of driving force is determined by this lines' relationship to the center of gravity of the truck. Imagine pushing on a box with the center of gravity exactly in the geometric center. Your shoes are the tires, the location where your hands contact the box would be the instant center. That should give a more tangible feel for what is going on.Now, where is the center of gravity? Who knows. I've never scaled front wt. vs. rear wt. to figure it out, but I feel pretty sure it lies someplace forward of this line.
With the CalTracs, the instant center is essentially the location of the front heim. That would reduce the angle of the "driving line of force" vector. I think it directs it much closer to the center of gravity. Is this direction ideal? Probably not, but it definitely "closer to usable" and provides some degree of mechanical advantage over snubbers alone.
What is the ideal direction of this vector? Again, don't know, way to many variables from truck to truck, tires, shocks, etc.
Same thing applies to determining the front mount location on a traction bar. The advantage of the traction bars is you can determined the front mount location, but let's not open the can of worms associated with suspension bind with traction bar/leaf combos.
Leaf springs suck!
A little OT...
Well I can't get the pic to link overhere...anyway look in "Spurs_442" garage over at TDP. His housing spun on the tubes. Initially I was thinking that a snubber would have stop this...but the more I think about it, the less I think it would have help in his case. FYI, he has a dually and did this sled pullin'
Well I can't get the pic to link overhere...anyway look in "Spurs_442" garage over at TDP. His housing spun on the tubes. Initially I was thinking that a snubber would have stop this...but the more I think about it, the less I think it would have help in his case. FYI, he has a dually and did this sled pullin'