LBZ: Rods So many choices
- Thread starter aggar
- Start date
Yeah...I know. Silly me. I only think "stock" parts.
Since Im the village idiot when it comes to building engine parts, Im curious about just taking a stock LBZ rod and simply duplicating it out of a better material? How much power could something like that take? (I dont think the Crower rod is done like that, is it?)
As much as I would love to see the price of rod come down, I will say that I dont shop them on price. These engines are damned expensive to build once, much more the second time ( same for transmissions )
Build something that works, I'll buy it. I'll even test it. Price it where you have too.
I remember 4 years ago talking to Oliver, Cunningham and Crower about building rods. This was before it was really talked about. Crower would build it, but wanted a commitment that was not something I could do financially at that time. Cunningham was willing to build as many as I wanted for 275.00 per rod, 1 or a hundred
Oliver was not interested.
The material used, as well as the thickness of the forging to start with, etc all adds up to some $$$
IMO, if your looking for inexpensive rods, get some LBZ units, if that wont work, jump up to the known ( and upcoming?) units.
Build something that works, I'll buy it. I'll even test it. Price it where you have too.
I remember 4 years ago talking to Oliver, Cunningham and Crower about building rods. This was before it was really talked about. Crower would build it, but wanted a commitment that was not something I could do financially at that time. Cunningham was willing to build as many as I wanted for 275.00 per rod, 1 or a hundred
Oliver was not interested.
The material used, as well as the thickness of the forging to start with, etc all adds up to some $$$
IMO, if your looking for inexpensive rods, get some LBZ units, if that wont work, jump up to the known ( and upcoming?) units.
If they really and truly know what they are doing, they dont/arent gonna need input from a bunch of uneducated (mechanically engineering/rod engineering standpoint) idiots on an INTERNET FORUM... thats the root of my skepticism. They are already well on their way to making these rods (so John says) and up until pat said something a few posts ago, they didnt even know the weights of the stock pistons??? Seriously?
Matt thats great you want to sell them; just another thing you can peddle/make a buck off of yet not actually know a damn thing about. Say you just blew your motor yesterday and didnt yet know which way you wanted to go as far as internal parts. Would you run them in your truck if they went on sale tomorrow?
For all intents and purposes, John Noonan and his company have NO MORE experience in making diesel rods than idiot pink slippers DuramaxTuner does/did. I dont know why all you guys are under some impression that he knows something DuramaxTuner didnt...?????
Im done in this thread starting now with this post. IF these rods ever come out and they hold 900rwhp reliably and offer a significant cost savings over the current proven rods, then you guys can all thumb your noses at me, put a dunce cap on my head, and make me kiss your shoes. But until then this is all just talk/smoke/mirrors.
Good luck!
ben
Ben is exactly right.
People, don't be so gullible.
I see your point Ben, but your reading into it too much. All this guy said was they are going to try it-he never said they have some in production or anything yet and from what I can tell, they are still gathering data and doing research.
And any of you jackholes reading this that think that a manufacturer asking for input on what potential customers want to make an improved product available might be dumb, foolish, or otherwise not needed, then piss off from this thread because your obviously don't see the opportunity being placed before ALL OF US!! I for one wish more manufacturers would ask for the input of it's potential customers. That way we actually get we want, not what they think we need.
Just because it's the internet, doesn't mean the information presented isn't valid or neccessary.
Unbelievable people.....
And any of you jackholes reading this that think that a manufacturer asking for input on what potential customers want to make an improved product available might be dumb, foolish, or otherwise not needed, then piss off from this thread because your obviously don't see the opportunity being placed before ALL OF US!! I for one wish more manufacturers would ask for the input of it's potential customers. That way we actually get we want, not what they think we need.
Just because it's the internet, doesn't mean the information presented isn't valid or neccessary.
Unbelievable people.....
Pretty sure that was a just a copy of a Crower that was made out of Play-Doh.
I was certainly surprised when they did not offer them in various colors or in a gift pack that included crayons. At least then they would be more attractive as paperweights and you'd have something to do while your truck was busted and waiting for parts.
I suppose it was all for the best. If they sold well, we'd have to endure the ShamWow guy trying to sell the rods on the History Channel...
Not special, but different. Cylinder pressure is a bunch higher than anything that would normally be associated with street/strip applications. If GM thought it wise to beef up a wrist pin that already weighed close to pound just to step up from 310HP to 360HP, it gives you an idea how much more load per HP we see with the Dmax.
To GM's credit, a rod that was designed for a 310HP (250rwhp) engine has good service life up to 750HP (650rwhp). Or like taking a 400HP Corvette to 1000HP and expecting the rods to last more than 1 full quarter mile pass (they wouldn't). An aftermarket rod for a Corvette that could survive 1000HP would be considered OK, but for us that wouldn't improve our situation. We'd expect it to handle 1600HP+ to be considered a good rod. But at that power level, the rod is no longer the weak link, so it would be overkill. Yes, they do make gas rods that handle more than 1600HP, but normally there is little OEM content left to the engine, whereas we are still using mostly factory pieces.
So if a rod maker uses normal gas engine hotrod performance goals for a Dmax, they are going to fall way short.
I've thought about that too..
But think of this, Hand tool sockets (hardened) vs. Impact sockets (soft material).
Making the material stronger will allow them to break, instead of bending.
That is the best exapmle I can think of that makes anykind of sense
The rod is made stronger and the same material is used...:thumb:
With your thinking picture a thinner impact socket that would fail after a few uses, then make it from the same material and design it better with more material in the previously failed area.
John
I guess Id like to know what metal alloy you're thinking of using to make these rods, not that Id understand all the properties behind the choice. Still would be nice to know what you're thinking. The way your quote reads to me is that you're just going to bandaid the stock rod, which is essentially what Dmaxtuner did (and it failed miserably). His were made out of 4140, IIRC.
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I've read this thread a few times and I must say there are so many people who are just missing the boat when it comes to rods and what to use. I'm not worried about competition in the rod market, I think competition is good for any product. The point is cheap rods are nothing but sub-standard. If someone can build rods at less than 2k purchase price there will have to be shortcuts made in quality, materials, or workmanship or maybe even all of the above. Maybe they can build them at very little profit? Where will they be in a year or two? Still producing cheap rods at a low profit or no profit when the price of steel goes up again? So someone want's to build a cheap rod that will hold up to an 800hp engine....I've yet to meet a hot rodder who is satisfied with just XXX amount of hp...they always want more.
I have to question the thought process of parts manufactures who let customers do their testing for them. In 2006, I was knocking the rod bushings out of Crowers when running at only 800hp continuous for hours at a time. Crower could only replace bushings with better material...only to find they didn't last any longer that the cheaper bushing material. A new design was needed that could provide presureized oiling to the wrist pin and bushing. This is the basic start of making better parts...a problem in need of a solution.
Starting in fall of 2006 I started working with the right people and machine shops to get the solution I was looking for. I needed better materials, intelligent design features, forced oiling and light weigh. I wanted to start with a forging and you know what??? people wanted to get paid to design and build the tooling to create the forging blank. There are minimum orders to have a forging company pound out blanks. Raw blanks were going to weigh almost 7000 grams or over 15lbs of quality 4340 material. So after buying 7500 lbs of high quality 4340 they start hammering them out and shipping them here to Milwaukee. Now you need to design the tooling to hold the parts to machine the rods. Again, lots of capital costs involved.
After the first few sets are machined we start the testing in our boat. I guess the advantage we had was two engines allows testing of different designs at the same time. The entire spring and summer of 2007 was spent testing rods, tearing down engines, making changes to rods then balancing and rebuilding the engines and testing again until they are right..all done before the first customer even sees the rods. These are costs that will never be recouped no matter how many rods are sold.
My point is, the consumer rarely if ever sees what goes into a product before it comes to market. They don't know how much it really costs to come up with bulletproof parts, but it always comes down to someone had to buy and break the eggs to make the omlette we all can eat.
You have to ask yourself when buying rods "Is the R&D that went into the parts worth the money?? What is the price of piece of mind."
I have to question the thought process of parts manufactures who let customers do their testing for them. In 2006, I was knocking the rod bushings out of Crowers when running at only 800hp continuous for hours at a time. Crower could only replace bushings with better material...only to find they didn't last any longer that the cheaper bushing material. A new design was needed that could provide presureized oiling to the wrist pin and bushing. This is the basic start of making better parts...a problem in need of a solution.
Starting in fall of 2006 I started working with the right people and machine shops to get the solution I was looking for. I needed better materials, intelligent design features, forced oiling and light weigh. I wanted to start with a forging and you know what??? people wanted to get paid to design and build the tooling to create the forging blank. There are minimum orders to have a forging company pound out blanks. Raw blanks were going to weigh almost 7000 grams or over 15lbs of quality 4340 material. So after buying 7500 lbs of high quality 4340 they start hammering them out and shipping them here to Milwaukee. Now you need to design the tooling to hold the parts to machine the rods. Again, lots of capital costs involved.
After the first few sets are machined we start the testing in our boat. I guess the advantage we had was two engines allows testing of different designs at the same time. The entire spring and summer of 2007 was spent testing rods, tearing down engines, making changes to rods then balancing and rebuilding the engines and testing again until they are right..all done before the first customer even sees the rods. These are costs that will never be recouped no matter how many rods are sold.
My point is, the consumer rarely if ever sees what goes into a product before it comes to market. They don't know how much it really costs to come up with bulletproof parts, but it always comes down to someone had to buy and break the eggs to make the omlette we all can eat.
You have to ask yourself when buying rods "Is the R&D that went into the parts worth the money?? What is the price of piece of mind."
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Very good points and in many cases for me - piece of mind a reliability is close to priceless.
That said, the R&D on rods has been pretty much summed up several years ago for the most part; as far as a reliable rod that will hold up to what the "average" consumer can throw at it. Reliable and proven good products are currently on the market. Those that did the R&D back then should have been paid by now as far as I am concerned.
Only thing really lacking now that I can see is a large number of builders to buy these rods from. Hence the reason I believe the prices are still ridonkulous!!
IMO the only R&D being done now is to develop rods for those who push the envelope as far as what newly designed rods can hold right? Those are the rods that should be more pricey.
Or maybe I should look at it from the if you can't afford to pay, don't play angle and just shut up about the price?????
Prices are perhaps controlled more by quantities than any other factor.
A set of 840g forged rods (two piece forging, H beam) made of 4340 for a big block Ford is ~$600 for 8 market price.
A set of 840g forged rods (two piece forging, H beam) made of 4340 for a big block Ford is ~$600 for 8 market price.
Good point Pat...you might also have to look at the origin of such inexpensive rods. Most likely from China and material that can't be traced. Built in tens of thousands in the production runs. Quality??? who knows. Small block chevy rods really can't be compared to what duramax engines need....really apples to oranges there.
Interesting thread, I have a related question, what exactly does the weight savings in rods do? I understand less weight is easier to turn therefor what? more hp? higher rpm? longer life? What exactly is gained? How much weight difference is there between the lightest and the heavest of the aftermarkert high quality rods, and what does that potentially translate to in performance?
A few of us posted the weight in here on our rods and I think my Cunninghams are the heaviest.