LBZ: Rods So many choices
- Thread starter aggar
- Start date
Thanks, we run R & R's and I assume they are in the middle of those numbers somewhere, again what does all of this translate to in performance?
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Besides the obvious reduction in strain on the crank because the part is lighter, less weight allows the engine to spool up faster with the same power input. Less inertia. So you peak HP number may not change, but your ETs will because you are accelerating less mass.
The faster you spin an engine, the more important reciprocating mass becomes. Velocity is a bitch squared, whereas mass is only a bitch to the first order.
I will admit that after hearing for 3 years from pretty much all rod mfr's/dealers that raw material cost is the huge obstacle to overcome when selling Duramax rods I get skeptical. I'd sure like somebody to actually quantify that. I'm just a hobbyist, but I can buy 50lbs of 4340 with certs for about $250.
And every time I hear the term Aerospace, I cringe. Yeah, many (most?) modern high strength alloys were developed by the aerospace industry. If someone tells me I'm buying Aerospace stuff, I want to see the x-rays, certs, coupons, and FAI (inspection) docs. Otherwise, you are just selling auto parts made of commercially available materials.
There is nothing wrong with honesty. These parts cost a lot because they aren't mass-produced, nor would the market support it. But there are lots of P/N's for 4340 rods that aren't any more popular than Dmax parts; they are cheaper simply because the startup costs have already been absorbed. So I will make a prediction, that in another 3 years we will look back and laugh at what dealers were telling us about pricing.
I certainly could be wrong.
I will admit that after hearing for 3 years from pretty much all rod mfr's/dealers that raw material cost is the huge obstacle to overcome when selling Duramax rods I get skeptical. I'd sure like somebody to actually quantify that. I'm just a hobbyist, but I can buy 50lbs of 4340 with certs for about $250.
And every time I hear the term Aerospace, I cringe. Yeah, many (most?) modern high strength alloys were developed by the aerospace industry. If someone tells me I'm buying Aerospace stuff, I want to see the x-rays, certs, coupons, and FAI (inspection) docs. Otherwise, you are just selling auto parts made of commercially available materials.
There is nothing wrong with honesty. These parts cost a lot because they aren't mass-produced, nor would the market support it. But there are lots of P/N's for 4340 rods that aren't any more popular than Dmax parts; they are cheaper simply because the startup costs have already been absorbed. So I will make a prediction, that in another 3 years we will look back and laugh at what dealers were telling us about pricing.
I certainly could be wrong.
There's no comparison between a SBC or BBC rod and these diesel rods. How many times more gas Chevy rods are sold than Dmax rods......200? 400? I don't know, but figure it's a whole bunch. And no matter what it is, greater volume means lower price. These things have to be a lot stronger....they use a lot more material and the price of steel keeps going up.
This thread has been going a couple months now. Somebody comes along and says "oh yeah, we can do this...", it's just talk until it's been done. He may know, or he may be the delivery guy, or the order taker, or a warehouse stocker for that German company. These posts have gotten a lot of attention for someone. But the questions that have been asked, someone doesn't know squat about these engines. Going on the internet asking for piston weights? What's that all about? If this or any reputable company is really serious about making rods for an engine, it'll buy pistons and definitely won't have to be asking about them on some forum. They'll build engines and test, and test some more, and they sure's hell won't release anything until it's been thoroughly proven. The whole thing as posted smells fishy.
Sales volume with diesel rods is comparatively quite low and they're expensive. But build an engine and the rods should be so strong you never have to even think about them failing. All the aftermarket rods are damn near bulletproof. The rods that DMax 65 - Curtis Halvorson - was talking about is the Howard rod. Manufacturing cost is very high for that rod. One reason is strength, which in this case is related to precision. With finished rods, when both hole centerlines are checked for trueness with each other and they're out just a little, they have to be tweeked back into perfect alignment. This takes a lot of force. Those Howard rods are so rigid they wouldn't tweek and force that wouldn't flex one of theirs easily twisted other brands. They had to develop different manufacturing methods which include heat treat at 3 different stages, and machining that's dead nuts accurate in order to get them perfect. Then there was about a year of torture testing different prototypes in that race boat. These rods were expensive to develop and they're expensive to make. The profit margin isn't much.
If some German company can make a rod as good as Carillo-Howards-TTS-Crower that'll actually sell for less, great. But I don't think they can, nor would they even care to.
This thread has been going a couple months now. Somebody comes along and says "oh yeah, we can do this...", it's just talk until it's been done. He may know, or he may be the delivery guy, or the order taker, or a warehouse stocker for that German company. These posts have gotten a lot of attention for someone. But the questions that have been asked, someone doesn't know squat about these engines. Going on the internet asking for piston weights? What's that all about? If this or any reputable company is really serious about making rods for an engine, it'll buy pistons and definitely won't have to be asking about them on some forum. They'll build engines and test, and test some more, and they sure's hell won't release anything until it's been thoroughly proven. The whole thing as posted smells fishy.
Sales volume with diesel rods is comparatively quite low and they're expensive. But build an engine and the rods should be so strong you never have to even think about them failing. All the aftermarket rods are damn near bulletproof. The rods that DMax 65 - Curtis Halvorson - was talking about is the Howard rod. Manufacturing cost is very high for that rod. One reason is strength, which in this case is related to precision. With finished rods, when both hole centerlines are checked for trueness with each other and they're out just a little, they have to be tweeked back into perfect alignment. This takes a lot of force. Those Howard rods are so rigid they wouldn't tweek and force that wouldn't flex one of theirs easily twisted other brands. They had to develop different manufacturing methods which include heat treat at 3 different stages, and machining that's dead nuts accurate in order to get them perfect. Then there was about a year of torture testing different prototypes in that race boat. These rods were expensive to develop and they're expensive to make. The profit margin isn't much.
If some German company can make a rod as good as Carillo-Howards-TTS-Crower that'll actually sell for less, great. But I don't think they can, nor would they even care to.
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I'll tell you what, since there seems to be some keyboard jockeys here that are so against another rod company coming in to this market and taking part of this great site I will no longer talk about the rods here to please the few whining members that seem to continue to bash this attempt to bring to market another alternative rod to market for less money. Thank you for the many members that have offered their services or parts fitting and ultimately rod testing. :thumb:
Now a bit of history and facts.
1. We already make a replacement rod for the Hayabusa motorcycle engine that are not only proven to be stronger they are a few hundred dollars less on a four cylinder set. Why are they selling for a few hundred dollars less, becasue our cost is less and we price our parts at cost plus 30% (at WD pricing) rather than market pricing like most companies.
The business plans from the larger companies are flawed in this economic time and that is the reason brand "J" has let go 40+ % of their staff and brand "W" has let go 25+ % of their staff.
We do not price parts based on what other companies retail or sell their parts for, one of my customers I now sell to with my brand of pistons is saving 17 dollars per piston from what he was paying from one of the other major piston companies here in the states. One of the reasons we sell for less is that our parts cost less as we are not a publicly traded company doing business the in the states, when you do the costs are more (thanks Enron) we also run our company very lean to the point that we run the machines 6-7 days a week and in the busy season we run 24 hours a day every day.
I won't even mention which US based rod company is having the forgings made, heat treating and 90% of machining done in Taiwan
yet still charge more than most companies for the finished part) This is not hearsay this was shown to us when we went over to have the 2-stroke rods made overseas to compete with another company for a cheap 50-100 dollar rod kit.
We went to the PRI show last year and when we told a potential WD customer (rotating assembly seller) that our rods were between $ 140.00-160.00 he said that was a good price..I could see that he was trying to divide the price over the cost of eight rods and interupted him with the comment that the price was each (per rod) and not per set.
He then gingerly set the rod down and exclaimed that he could buy the "same rod" in China for $20.00 each..:rofl:
At the end of the day I came to this site to find out some information about problems with my Duramax truck and came to this post regarding rods, as you read through them you will see that I did not try to promote sales or my company I mearly attempted to fulfil what seemed like a potential small market where some folks are being charged a bit more than I felt they should be and was welcomed (by most) with open arms however as the addage go's, it only takes one bad apple so I will consider this my last post on this subject and move on to getting ready for teh 2009 SCTA/BNI race season.:hello:
Now I still need to make the truck have more power than my race bikes..
Pat we will see you at the races..:thumb:
John
Now a bit of history and facts.
1. We already make a replacement rod for the Hayabusa motorcycle engine that are not only proven to be stronger they are a few hundred dollars less on a four cylinder set. Why are they selling for a few hundred dollars less, becasue our cost is less and we price our parts at cost plus 30% (at WD pricing) rather than market pricing like most companies.
The business plans from the larger companies are flawed in this economic time and that is the reason brand "J" has let go 40+ % of their staff and brand "W" has let go 25+ % of their staff.
We do not price parts based on what other companies retail or sell their parts for, one of my customers I now sell to with my brand of pistons is saving 17 dollars per piston from what he was paying from one of the other major piston companies here in the states. One of the reasons we sell for less is that our parts cost less as we are not a publicly traded company doing business the in the states, when you do the costs are more (thanks Enron) we also run our company very lean to the point that we run the machines 6-7 days a week and in the busy season we run 24 hours a day every day.
I won't even mention which US based rod company is having the forgings made, heat treating and 90% of machining done in Taiwan
yet still charge more than most companies for the finished part) This is not hearsay this was shown to us when we went over to have the 2-stroke rods made overseas to compete with another company for a cheap 50-100 dollar rod kit.We went to the PRI show last year and when we told a potential WD customer (rotating assembly seller) that our rods were between $ 140.00-160.00 he said that was a good price..I could see that he was trying to divide the price over the cost of eight rods and interupted him with the comment that the price was each (per rod) and not per set.
He then gingerly set the rod down and exclaimed that he could buy the "same rod" in China for $20.00 each..:rofl:
At the end of the day I came to this site to find out some information about problems with my Duramax truck and came to this post regarding rods, as you read through them you will see that I did not try to promote sales or my company I mearly attempted to fulfil what seemed like a potential small market where some folks are being charged a bit more than I felt they should be and was welcomed (by most) with open arms however as the addage go's, it only takes one bad apple so I will consider this my last post on this subject and move on to getting ready for teh 2009 SCTA/BNI race season.:hello:
Now I still need to make the truck have more power than my race bikes..
Pat we will see you at the races..:thumb:
John
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Found this picture... thought it fitting.
John.... Falicon?
The rods and pistons in the picture are for a Nitro Top Fuel car and are what appears to be either a Howards or most likely a Brooks Aluminum rod and a hard anodized JE or Venolia piston..but what do I know I work for a company based in Germany..
J
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LOL, correct. Out of my friends Canidae Top Fuel car.
Nah.... looks like this guy doesnt know anything. :spit::spit::spit:
Nah.... looks like this guy doesnt know anything. :spit::spit::spit:
While all that is true you missed the real reason why Dmax rods are so much more $$$$. Sure sales volume and demand play into but the biggest thing is the shear size of the rod. You must start out with a billet that is much larger than one used to manufature a SBC rod. Matter of fact you could make 4 SBC rods out of one billet used to machine a Dmax rod. The larger rod means a larger billet. That adds up to more machine time and tooling to get the rod machined to spec. That is why the big difference in cost.
IMHO you never see a quality rod under $2000. Unless you subout forging and machining to China like Scat, Eagle, and may other cheapo brands. I dont buy those brands away. The quality of machining and balance is never there. By the time you rework them to where they should be you have added enough time and money fixxing them that a good USA made rod become very competitive in price. I encourage anyone to buy a rod made some where that has a standard of living and a drive for quality like we have here in the USA.
But what do I know?
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You forgot Cunningham.
Thanks for that lovely informercial. :thumb:
But both you and Curtis has already posted in this thread, and neither of you are advertisers here.
Understand that John Noonan is NOT selling stuff here, or advertising. I for one do not see gathering information from hotrod sites as a sign of stupidity. As a buyer, I trust information from other hotrodders more than I trust sales pitches or magazine articles.
If getting information off the internet is a sign of limited mental capacity, be aware that both you and Curtis read the internet performance sites.
Yes I read a couple internet performance sites....so do a lot of people, including yourself. I made no reference to "mental capacity."You forgot Cunningham.
****Yes, I plumb forgot.
Thanks for that lovely informercial. :thumb:
****Nothing wrong with talking about a product.
But both you and Curtis has already posted in this thread, and neither of you are advertisers here.
*****He never mentioned his company. I have no company, don't sell anything.
Understand that John Noonan is NOT selling stuff here, or advertising. I for one do not see gathering information from hotrod sites as a sign of stupidity. As a buyer, I trust information from other hotrodders more than I trust sales pitches or magazine articles.
****As a "manufacturer" or someone planning to have something made, I'd be serious enough to at least get a couple pistons and find out for myself how much they weigh.
If getting information off the internet is a sign of limited mental capacity, be aware that both you and Curtis read the internet performance sites.
I'll tell you what, since there seems to be some keyboard jockeys here that are so against another rod company coming in to this market and taking part of this great site I will no longer talk about the rods here to please the few whining members that seem to continue to bash this attempt to bring to market another alternative rod to market for less money. Thank you for the many members that have offered their services or parts fitting and ultimately rod testing. :thumb:
Now a bit of history and facts.
1. We already make a replacement rod for the Hayabusa motorcycle engine that are not only proven to be stronger they are a few hundred dollars less on a four cylinder set. Why are they selling for a few hundred dollars less, becasue our cost is less and we price our parts at cost plus 30% (at WD pricing) rather than market pricing like most companies.
The business plans from the larger companies are flawed in this economic time and that is the reason brand "J" has let go 40+ % of their staff and brand "W" has let go 25+ % of their staff.
We do not price parts based on what other companies retail or sell their parts for, one of my customers I now sell to with my brand of pistons is saving 17 dollars per piston from what he was paying from one of the other major piston companies here in the states. One of the reasons we sell for less is that our parts cost less as we are not a publicly traded company doing business the in the states, when you do the costs are more (thanks Enron) we also run our company very lean to the point that we run the machines 6-7 days a week and in the busy season we run 24 hours a day every day.
I won't even mention which US based rod company is having the forgings made, heat treating and 90% of machining done in Taiwan
We went to the PRI show last year and when we told a potential WD customer (rotating assembly seller) that our rods were between $ 140.00-160.00 he said that was a good price..I could see that he was trying to divide the price over the cost of eight rods and interupted him with the comment that the price was each (per rod) and not per set.
He then gingerly set the rod down and exclaimed that he could buy the "same rod" in China for $20.00 each..:rofl:
At the end of the day I came to this site to find out some information about problems with my Duramax truck and came to this post regarding rods, as you read through them you will see that I did not try to promote sales or my company I mearly attempted to fulfil what seemed like a potential small market where some folks are being charged a bit more than I felt they should be and was welcomed (by most) with open arms however as the addage go's, it only takes one bad apple so I will consider this my last post on this subject and move on to getting ready for teh 2009 SCTA/BNI race season.:hello:
Now I still need to make the truck have more power than my race bikes..
Pat we will see you at the races..:thumb:
John
That's wonderful about the Hyabusa rods but it has nothing to do with these diesels. Now if there's ever one of those motorcycles in the garage and it needs a set of rods, I'll seriously consider Wossner. It's a nice looking rod....looks just like a Carillo. And if I ever have a European car and decide to replace the rods, I'll look at Wossner for that too. But until they make something much larger and specifically for a Dmax, it's irrelevant. Probably some people would beta test a new rod, but I never would. If you're really serious, have them made and test them thoroughly, then do the hype.
You're not getting it. It has nothing to do with not wanting another rod company....it's about the "tilt" light. When the "tilt" light goes on, does seeing it make someone a "keyboard jockey?" All this stuff about what they "can" do is just stuff......is it "whining" to question what sounds like BS? Seems to me a keyboard jockey would be someone who tells people what they want to hear in order to boost their own ego.
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No, you are not "getting it".
You slam one of our members out-of-the-blue so you can do free marketing for DPR. Now you act butt-hurt when he calls you a poser.
Let's see your credentials.
I'll admit I'm curious too.
I dont understand why people have to be so against the guy, I mean why do you give a crap?
I have no intentions of purchasing these rods, But i have gained knowlege from the questions he has asked.
No reason to insult him either!
I have no problem with what John is doing. I looked into making them myself. I quickly realized that my machine rate would make them more $$$$.
So I bought Crowers. I am very pleased. I would by another set. For our engines I prefer the higher out surface area of the I beam over the H and the X beams. But that is just me.
I see no issue with John gathering info. He is not stealing info. Those of us that bought the rods chose to share the info. We purchased them they are ours to do with as we wish. If you dont want someone looking at your parts dont sell them!:thumb:
John is not new to the con rod world. It does not hurt from to take a hard look at it. If they go ahead and design them in the USA and manufacture them in Germany I have no problem with that at all.
I dont like telling a man it cant be done when he is busy doing it!