Nitrous basics

[Diesel power]

I am going to throw in a suggestion. Nobody disputes that nitrous has made it easily possible to destroy motors quicker. This would imply that it very well could be implimentation that is to blame, and not nitrous, just one possibility, but it hasn't been disproven to my satisfaction . It is clearly a 2 camp discussion. What would be really good to determine:

2 configurations

1. High boost, high fuel configuration, typical reputable 450 HP tune.
2. Normal boost (or thereabouts), high fuel tune, retarded timing with N2O, again approx 450 HP.

Determine which one generates higher peak CP, and EGT. My guess is that #2 will come out ahead. I could be wrong.

Advanced timing creates high CP Before TDC--not good with high boost PSI. ( i think this is the worst senario.)

Nitrous creates high CP after TDC--Very good. succesfully burning the "left over" fuel in the chamber. I think this is the best senario.

 

[Stingpuller]

Nos

Killerbee, It will make higher EGT's if you back the timing off. Thats my point. You don't want to do that with a normal kit(smaller size). I will promise you it will be higher. Now leave the timing up and see what it does. Just for sake of say what do you think will happen on your #1 if you back timing out? It will get hotter. Jeff

 

[super diesel]

Ok, as long as some smart people are here I have a few questions about nitrous. Last summer I ran on a dyno. I ran a tune that made 450 on fuel 480 with water/meth and 548 with water/meth and a .55 shot of nitrous. Can you safely run water/meth and nitrous? The tune ran 28 degrees of timing. Do I have to worry about chamber pressure? or what are some guide lines when running this type of setup?

I was waiting to see some other answers here, but nothing so far. I've been down this road. The water freezes in the intake track. I would maybe consider running the N2O precompressor and the W/M injection right at the intake tube (where it goes right into the motor) to see if it warm up enough not to freeze the water. Your taking a chance is my input on this though. I'm not as daring as I use to be I guess.

 

[Killerbee]

Killerbee, It will make higher EGT's if you back the timing off.

higher than an equal HP tune that doesn't use nitrous? That is the question, and maybe some controlled testing will be useful to determine the non-anecdotal answer.

Nobody argues that adding nitrous to an overfueled platform would increase EGT, as well as power, the usual relationship.

I am brought back to the spreadsheet. It says if you use high boost, then add nitrous, plan on much advanced ignition, or a boom if you don't plan for it. This may be where nitrous gets a bad rap, or justifiable homicide. The usual egt increase with retard applies. Thermodynamically speaking, the higher the output you want, the higher the heat release you will need, which naturally equates to melting stuff.

If I was going to build a PID to test different configurations, it might read peakCP*EGT*DP/wheeltorque, and attempt to minimize it.

 

[Stingpuller]

Water/Meth and NOS

Sorry Superdiesel but I don't have have knowledge with that. I have never run water or meth. I don't like to answer to what i'm not sure about. I have only run CNG and NOS. I have run meth with nos on a 2 stroke outboard motor on a boat. It still run gas with nos but run alky in a seperate tank for the nos fuel. It would lower the egt's a 200*. Boy did it sound good at full song! Jeff

 

[super diesel]

Actually I was waiting to see if Wade had any thing to say about this Jeff. It's a dangerous combo any way you do I think. Not sure of the reaction the methonol would have with the N2O sinse it doesn't freeze till about -210 (only from what I read along time ago) and the water freezes in the intake track. There's no room for speculation on this either. Could be very harmful. I survived, but it wasn't a real smart move IMHO.

 

[SteveFord]

So sparying in N20 which helps burn the unburnt fuel creates more heat. Even though the air charge is now cooler than before. So how does a cooler air charge being bigger intercooler, better intake and bigger turbo run cooler egts with the same amount of fuel but burns more of the unburnt fuel with the same tune...... but by not adding or changing anything like timming as long as it's not high to begin with a cooler air charge with N20 makes more heat? Hope my question makes sense.

 

[super diesel]

What I witnessed is since more fuel burns you get more heat from this. Just like going from a mild tune to a big tune. This is the black smoke you see. Incompleat combustion. When you have black smoke flowing, your leaving power on the table. The more of it that burns, the more energy your making. Probably about as clear as mud. I don't say things quite correctly sometimes.

 

[Diesel power]

Actually I was waiting to see if Wade had any thing to say about this Jeff. It's a dangerous combo any way you do I think. Not sure of the reaction the methonol would have with the N2O sinse it doesn't freeze till about -210 (only from what I read along time ago) and the water freezes in the intake track. There's no room for speculation on this either. Could be very harmful. I survived, but it wasn't a real smart move IMHO.

On the cummins it works well. Meth is a fuel that burns longer than #2 and burns on the power stroke thus enabling more power-- safer, the water has a steam effect that will cool as it creates more dense air and it provides power thru steam--just dont inject too much!. So nitrous would work just as it would with #2 only meth is more easily combusted.

Water mixed with meth will not freeze due to nitrous, lower ratio's of meth could be come frozen but, thats just theory, i have never accually witnessed frozen water, due to nitrous. Mainly due to the fact that no matter how much nitrous you inject it would be real unlikely you could ever get ALL the boosted air to get low enough to freeze rapidly moveing mixture of water and meth.

Water only freezes @ 32* and thats IF it still, if it's moving it's much lower, not to mention that the freeze point would drastically lower due to the meth mixed in and the rapidly moving surrounding air that most likely also above freezeing........

Something to think about.

 

[JoshH]

Water only freezes @ 32* and thats IF it still, if it's moving it's much lower

I don't think so.

 

[Diesel power]

I don't think so.

Well you thought wrong......

If the molecules in water are still they will connect and cause a state change from liquid to solid.

IF the molecuels are constantly in motion they cant change state as easily from liquid to solid.

So with that said it would take a colder temp to solidifie moveing water!

Just simple physics

 

[Fingers]

The temp that water freezes at does not depend on it moving or not. The transition temperature does change with pressure, but very little in the pressures we deal with.

Once the water and meth evaporate, they are no longer a mix and will freeze at their respective temps. So if the air in the intake pipes gets below 32*, the water can and will start to precipitate out as ice. How quickly is another matter.

 

[super diesel]

Water mixed with meth will not freeze due to nitrous, lower ratio's of meth could be come frozen but, thats just theory, i have never accually witnessed frozen water, due to nitrous.

This freezing is what I witness first hand. It was amazing how quickly the sheets of ice formed (fractions of a second). It made me wonder. The specific gravity is extremely different between water and methanol (water is 1.000 and methanol is under .800 at 70* F.) This tells us that it will separate VERY quickly. If the N2O goes in at -120F why would the water mist not freeze?

 

[Fingers]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the systems so far cited kick in a jet either full on or not at all. The closest they come to throttling the N2O is staging the jets? No wonder things go boom.

 

[WolfLMM]

Our intake system adds translational energy to the system. It will take longer for the water to freeze. Water in motion takes longer to freeze (time), it still freezes at the same temp. If you are to run both, do as Super Diesel said "put as much space between the N2O and w/m as possible."

 

[WolfLMM]

In other words Diesel Power had it right, just not temp wise. Moving water has more mechanical than still water. You must withdraw more thermal energy to freeze it, since there is an equivalence between mechanical and heat energy.

 

[sweetdiesel]

The specific gravity is extremely different between water and methanol (water is 1.000 and methanol is under .800 at 70* F.) This tells us that it will separate VERY quickly. If the N2O goes in at -120F why would the water mist not freeze?

I am pretty sure that methenol will not seperate from water as easy as say a oil...even a light oil. It is something to do with the molecular bond it creates with water.( I think )

 

[Fingers]

Again, no. Water at 32* has the same energy REGARDLESS of it's velocity. The 32* is a measure of it's energy after all. Any additional energy will show up as a temperature change.

 

[JoshH]

Well you thought wrong......

If the molecules in water are still they will connect and cause a state change from liquid to solid.

IF the molecuels are constantly in motion they cant change state as easily from liquid to solid.

So with that said it would take a colder temp to solidifie moveing water!

Just simple physics

Yes, it is simple physics! And I'm not the one who is wrong. You can apologize whenever you want.

 

[Killerbee]

This is too funny.