Nitromethane and alcohol:

UNBROKEN

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It appears that running nitromethane in diesel fuel has been going on for quite some time. The "signature" is sometimes orange flames erupt in the exhaust when not all the nitro burns and the engine is overfueled. Since there is little oxygen left in the exhaust, the unburned nitro supplies the oxygen to help burn the extra fuel.

That means Cummins 12v. I'm sure by now everyone has seen Cummins engines that are glowing orange out the exhaust.

I wonder if this explains why they don't just run nitrous oxide. Perhaps nitrous is not compatible with nitromethane? Dunno. What I do know is that the Dodge boys will take every possible advantage, but pretend like they are running otherwise. So big claims of #2 only Dodge power might not be what it appears. They are just using a form of liquid nitrous.


I smell a new conspiracy theory Pat. LOL

Anyway...the flames you'll see occasionally can also come from large amounts of additives like Diesel Power or Diesel Kleen. I've seen this myself and heard many times from others who do it.
I know a few 12V guys who's trucks will shoot a small flame and I will guarantee you it's not from nitromethane.

That's not to say some haven't tried it....but to say that's the only reason for the flame would be incorrect.
 
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UNBROKEN

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I thought this was interesting enough to copy over to our board, Pat. Hope you don't mind...no names or sites were mentioned.

Thought you might like other viewpoints on it also....you know where to find us.
 

Stingpuller

The Pusher Man
Jan 11, 2007
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Nitro

Nitro and NOS will work together. The tune has to be spot on, But it will work with good results. Like I have said before I'm the pusher man, :rofl:If its a drug that can POSSIBLY run in a motor I have tryed it! LOL I have run some nasty stuff in gas cars. Not always do you put stuff in the fuel:D. Prostock cars 10 years ago were creative and found that putting "stuff" in the oil after a couple of dyno pulls with the correct ring package the could see 15 or 20 hp on the dyno. Now remember thats a ton in prostock. There is some gains in fuels,additives but not a big amount. Not that I have seen anyhow. Jeff
 

UNBROKEN

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The ADRL 10.5 car that my brother crews on just ran the 1/4 in 6.56 @ 227 mph.
It runs 95% alcohol with 5% nitro.....it'll burn your eyes like crazy but it hauls ass.
Sounds wicked too...a big block with twin 96mm turbos with the downpipes exiting just in front of the front tires.
 

JOHNBOY

< Rocking the Big Single!
Aug 30, 2006
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Some additives will cause the orange flame. Namely Stayadyne Performance and Redline Diesl Fuel Catalyst.
Not sure what is in them but the do show improvements on the dyno and can cause a nice cherry out the stack.:)
 

McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
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I smell a new conspiracy theory Pat. LOL

Anyway...the flames you'll see occasionally can also come from large amounts of additives like Diesel Power or Diesel Kleen. I've seen this myself and heard many times from others who do it.
I know a few 12V guys who's trucks will shoot a small flame and I will guarantee you it's not from nitromethane.

That's not to same some haven't tried it....but to say that's the only reason for the flame would be incorrect.

Dunno what it is in said additives, but I'd guess that if they burn orange in the exhaust, they probably have oxygen compounds in them. Keep in mind that nitromethane's primary use is not fuel; it's as a solvent to dissolve chemicals.

No conspiracy theory, but if folk are getting all bent out of shape about running low-power fuels such as CNG or propane, perhaps it's because those aren't very useful to overfueled 12v's, and parity would really suck. It's the enemy of the Dodge boys. They have too much fuel, and we have too much air. Hence the fear of us using dual CP3's or other methods to catch up in the fuel department such as CNG.

And no, I didn't say that nitro is the only thing that burns orange.
 

Kat

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Aug 2, 2006
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I thought this was interesting enough to copy over to our board, Pat. Hope you don't mind...no names or sites were mentioned.

Thought you might like other viewpoints on it also....you know where to find us.

That was cute since he can't reply over there and claim it if he wanted to;)
 

UNBROKEN

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Let me ?
I'm afraid I don't understand the question Kat.
If you'd like me to attribute that post to Pat I'd be happy to oblige....I didn't initially so as to not start any fights on your site.
 

sweetdiesel

That's better
Aug 6, 2006
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I know a ton of guys that use Condensate in there trucks it makes there trucks KNOCK like crazy

I tried Accetone for a while and didnt notice any difference in fuel mileage or power:rolleyes:
 

SBCNX20

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Aug 7, 2006
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I found some info though not directly related to the question it is interesting. P.S all stolen info. Not mine.

The reason Nitromethane is such a good fuel is basically that it requires less oxygen to fully burn (oxidate) each molecule. For instance:

100 octane gasoline is mostly C8H18
2(C8H18)+25(O2) => 18(H20) + 16(CO2)
A ratio of 25/2 = 12.5 Oxygen molecules per fuel molecule

Nitromethane is CH3NO2
4(CH3NO2) + 7(O2) => 6(H2O) + 4(CO2) + 4(NO2)
A ratio of 7/4 = 1.75

So nitro requires over seven times less oxygen per molecule than does gasoline. Unfortunately, it's not quite as dense as gas, but after figuring the energy densities in, we still find that nitromethane nets you about 2.5 greater combustion power per pound of oxygen.

Methanol (CH3OH) is even better!
2(CH3OH) + 3(O2) => 4(H2O) + 2(CO2)
A ratio of 3/2 = 1.5
Figuring in the energy density, it's almost 3 times the combustion power of gasoline! But it's more dangerous to handle than nitromethane, and it's far more corrosive to the engine parts.

SO Nitromethane can produce 130% more energy than gasoline per kilogram of air. And contrary to my earlier post - methanol is a measly 11% better than 100 octane gasoline!

Side note:
Diesel and gasoline are witches brew - I couldn't even pretend to guess what's really in them anymore. Standard gasoline is generally a mix of heptane, octane, and nonane. Standard diesel fuel is classically tetradecane (C14H30) - but diesel is very unrefined. In general, for aliphatic carbon chains, as the chain gets longer, RON increases, the energy density increases, the "stoichiometric factor" decreases, and the heat of vaporization increases.

OK - here's the actual numbers (with units! :D ):
Oxygen (O2) is about 23% of the atmosphere by mass (21% by volume)
So, one kg of air contains about 0.23 kg of O2,
and 0.23kg / (32 g/mole) = 7.2 moles of O2 per kg of air

Fitting our balanced equation,
2(CH3OH) + 3(O2) => 4(H2O) + 2(CO2)
we can combust 2 moles of CH3OH for every 3 moles of O2. So to fully use up one kg of air, we need:

7.2 moles O2 * 2 moles CH3OH / 3 moles O2 = 4.8 moles CH3OH
and thus
4.8 moles CH3OH * 32 g/mole = 153 g of CH3OH

Therefore our mass stoichiometric ratio is:
1,000 g air / 153 g CH3OH = 6.51 mass air / mass CH3OH

Conversely:
153g CH3OH / 1,000 g air = 0.153 mass CH3OH / mass air

Ta da! :D

If you want to use my earlier "stoichiometric factor" to get the mass ratio (with atmospheric free Oxygen) just multiply it by the factor by (23% / 32 ) = 0.00719 to get mass CH3OH / mass air

So, here are the new numbers, in their correct, happy form:

Stoichiometric mass ratio (mass air / mass fuel):
1) nitromethane ( 1.72 )
2) methanol ( 6.51 )
3) gasoline (iso-octane) ( 15.4 )
4) diesel** (iso-tetradecane) ( 20.3 )

Fuel energy per mass air:
1) nitromethane ( (12,000 kJ/kg fuel) / (1.72 air/fuel) = 6978 kJ/kg air )
2) methanol ( (22,725 kJ/kg fuel) / (6.51 air/fuel) = 3490 kJ/kg air )
3) gasoline ( (47,895 kJ/kg fuel) / (15.4 air/fuel) = 3110 kJ/kg air )
4) diesel** ( (56,324 kJ/kg fuel / (20.3 air/fuel) = 2775 kJ/kg air )

For those who don't know, a kJ is a kilo-joule, a measure of energy equal to 2398 calories or 0.278 Watt-hour.

Fortunately for my ego, the proportionalities are close to what I reported before. (I attribute any differences to round-off error - I haven't carried many decimal places.) Nitromethane can produce 125% more energy per kg of air than 100 octane gasoline can. And methanol is only 11% better than the gas.

Make sense to everyone now? :cool:

**Note: I calculate diesel using only tetradecane (molecular weight of 198) as follows:
(C14H30) + 29(O2) => 30(H2O) + 14(CO2)
So the molecular stoich ratio is 29/1.
The mass stoich is (deep breath!):
(32 g/mol O2 / 23% (g O2 / g air)) * (29 mol O2 / 1 mol C14H30) / (198 g/mol C14H30) = 20.3 mass air / mass C14H30
**Note part II: Actual diesel fuel is a huge mix of chemicals, from C3H8 to C25H52 and beyond - it's exact stoich ratio will depend heavily on the mixture - I would assume that to get to the 13.9 mass stoich ratio that texan reports means that diesel fuel has a fair component of smaller than C14H30 molecules as well as aromatic compounds that do not break during combustion.
 

Mike L.

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I thought this was interesting enough to copy over to our board, Pat. Hope you don't mind...no names or sites were mentioned.

Thought you might like other viewpoints on it also....you know where to find us.

Other view points? Give me a f... break.:rolleyes:
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
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There are ton's of differant oxidizer's in differant states of matter. albiet some are very dangerous, im sure somewhere there is a perfect oxidizing addative. Sure theres nitrous but in larger amounts is proving to be dangerous to diesel pistions as it has been to spark ignition engines forever now. Not to sure i want nitro running through my common rail system till theres proof of concept. Im not to sure i want to spray it in via my M/W system, I have some nitro R/C trucks and they might just donate some fuel to some small scale experiments. One potential idea is to use an R/C plane engine thats converted to diesel. There already "diesels" but they run on a nitro mix and rely on a glow plug with a wire-filament type element, well the existing combustion heat combined with the reaction of the nitro to the metals in the glow-wire keep them running. Well a true dieselized R/C motor has the cyl head repalced with a new one without a glow plug, the have an adjustable contra-piston in it to change the compression ratio to actually light of the model diesel fuel wich is a little diff than #2 but reg diesel will work, this is an idea small scale to add nitro to with no adjustments to see how its affected:eek:
 

JOHNBOY

< Rocking the Big Single!
Aug 30, 2006
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I thought this was interesting enough to copy over to our board, Pat. Hope you don't mind...no names or sites were mentioned.

Thought you might like other viewpoints on it also....you know where to find us.
Why did not just link it? Your a big bad mod over there I am sure you know how.:rofl:
 

LB7Diesel

Oh Boy!
Sep 3, 2006
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Used this too:D It is very-very bad shit!!! Upon dumping it into the fuel, you must use it within an hour or it's gone. I know this b/c we used to race with Don Garrletts fuel guy Art Malone.

Chris, maybe you could chat with some of the fuel guy's at the next big event and get us some info:D

I need to check and see if there's any diesel vehicles at the rent a car place so I can pour a can of the Ol' Mighty in it and report the results.
 

McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
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There are ton's of differant oxidizer's in differant states of matter. albiet some are very dangerous, im sure somewhere there is a perfect oxidizing addative. Sure theres nitrous but in larger amounts is proving to be dangerous to diesel pistions as it has been to spark ignition engines forever now. Not to sure i want nitro running through my common rail system till theres proof of concept. Im not to sure i want to spray it in via my M/W system, I have some nitro R/C trucks and they might just donate some fuel to some small scale experiments. One potential idea is to use an R/C plane engine thats converted to diesel. There already "diesels" but they run on a nitro mix and rely on a glow plug with a wire-filament type element, well the existing combustion heat combined with the reaction of the nitro to the metals in the glow-wire keep them running. Well a true dieselized R/C motor has the cyl head repalced with a new one without a glow plug, the have an adjustable contra-piston in it to change the compression ratio to actually light of the model diesel fuel wich is a little diff than #2 but reg diesel will work, this is an idea small scale to add nitro to with no adjustments to see how its affected:eek:

Yeah, experiments on a small scale are most likely safer. There is a warning not to mix nitro with base compounds because it will form salts. So no Drano or lye.

Let's see, the nitromethane family so far is nitromethane, which is one carbon atom, then nitroethane which is 2 carbons, then nitropropane which is 3 carbons, and nitrobutane which is 4 atoms.

When I talked to a company that made "tractor race fuel" a few years ago, they indicated that it was oxygenated and you would get no gains unless you upped the injection shot 10%, but wouldn't disclose what was in it.

Since at the time I wasn't able to increase the fueling, I didn't bother with it.