Freeze it when it's all together.
on getting the torque wrench
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on getting the torque wrenchOk. I can do that. What does that do?
Allison 5sp: Issues after rebuild
- Thread starter Weisguy
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Ok. I can do that. What does that do?
If he over tourqed the valve body… Then chances are it's warped. And he'll need a new valve body. Ask me how I know
Would you be able to elaborate on the warping? Would it be visible and noticeable? Thank you
The valve body is made out of a fairly soft metal. It's doubtful that you would be able to see the warping. But I've either half is warped then they don't mate together correctly and under pressure fluid will leak out of the passages its supposed to be in. But I'm not a transmission expert I'm just telling you from my own experience
Thats fine. Would anyone be able to chime in? Would I be able to test for warping or maybe put air into the valve body to check for leaks?
From reading through these post i would definitely say at first you came off strongly demanding someone tell you what you did wrong. Then disrespectful when you didn't get answers saying people on the site are not experts and know nothing about the Allison. This is why you got all the attitude. I think like 4 post in you got good advise to unplug the trans to verify it's internal and not electrical.
From the info in the posts here i would say you should check the trans pressure first but other than that you need to remove it and take it apart to see the damage and any parts missing or installed improperly. If your unable to determine improperly installed parts or missing parts that is where you should be having someone that can do it. Otherwise you may have this trans in and out more than just one more time.
What people are frustrated about are things like you have a shop and don't really understand what a warped valvebody means or the concept behind putting it in the freezer to check for binding. Also ppl have told you why the trans needs to be repaired vertical but you decided to do it "the easy way" horizontal which should be a red flag to you once you hear that.. Sometimes you need to know why your doing something and not just do it to understand what's going on. That's not to sound like I'm picking on you just from your posts come off as someone needing to be spoon feed. You said you need to know what 2 dollar part out of 100 parts needs to be replaced but how could anyone know the extent of the damage without seeing the parts disassembled?
I think you will get more help once you have the trans all apart again.
From the info in the posts here i would say you should check the trans pressure first but other than that you need to remove it and take it apart to see the damage and any parts missing or installed improperly. If your unable to determine improperly installed parts or missing parts that is where you should be having someone that can do it. Otherwise you may have this trans in and out more than just one more time.
What people are frustrated about are things like you have a shop and don't really understand what a warped valvebody means or the concept behind putting it in the freezer to check for binding. Also ppl have told you why the trans needs to be repaired vertical but you decided to do it "the easy way" horizontal which should be a red flag to you once you hear that.. Sometimes you need to know why your doing something and not just do it to understand what's going on. That's not to sound like I'm picking on you just from your posts come off as someone needing to be spoon feed. You said you need to know what 2 dollar part out of 100 parts needs to be replaced but how could anyone know the extent of the damage without seeing the parts disassembled?
I think you will get more help once you have the trans all apart again.
Well the majority of the advice I was getting was to take it to someone else. I'm going to be spending my week tearing it back apart and inspecting it. Hopefully if I come across any questions, I'll be able to get some help. And just because I have a shop does not mean I know everything. Noone knows everything. But I have always done pretty much anything except major body work and transmissions. I wanted to change that and learn more about transmissions and saw an opportunity to do it to my own, rather than a customers. I saw several posts and videos of the rebuild being done horizontal on a work bench so I didn't think it was a problem until I was told about the bearing on here.
Where did you see anyone building an Allison horizontally on a work bench? Or are you just making crap up?
You should really quit complaining about other people's attitudes, and there lack of help.
Start actually doing the diagnosing that many of us have asked you to do and report back here.
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I'll reiterate what others said: disassemble and re-assemble it vertically.
When I rebuilt my original 5 speed many years ago, I took a PTO cover to a local fabrication shop and had them make me a piece that bolts to the PTO port on the transmission and has a pipe welded to it that slides into an engine stand. Some things need to come out/go in the back and some the front, and when assembling, the end you're working on needs to be up until the end is bolted on. This allowed me to effortlessly rotate the transmission however I needed it - front up for those parts, back up for those and upside down for the VB/pan.
This was my setup:
I wouldn't recommend doing it any other way.
When I rebuilt my original 5 speed many years ago, I took a PTO cover to a local fabrication shop and had them make me a piece that bolts to the PTO port on the transmission and has a pipe welded to it that slides into an engine stand. Some things need to come out/go in the back and some the front, and when assembling, the end you're working on needs to be up until the end is bolted on. This allowed me to effortlessly rotate the transmission however I needed it - front up for those parts, back up for those and upside down for the VB/pan.
This was my setup:
I wouldn't recommend doing it any other way.
Touche' didn't realize it would warp the valve body, thought it would distort it a little from being to tight but when pressure is relieved would straighten out.
Since your question about the bearing making noise seems to have been overlooked, I will answer it: no, it would not necessarily make any noise, just bind up the output shaft. This fits in with your description of the truck taking a lot of RPM to move.
When the trans comes back out, stand it on its end, and pull everything out. Take lots of photos on the way, mainly for your own reference. (But also we like to see carnage.) You might have lucked out on the bearing, but odds are you tore stuff up and will need some new hard parts. Fingers crossed for you...
When the trans comes back out, stand it on its end, and pull everything out. Take lots of photos on the way, mainly for your own reference. (But also we like to see carnage.) You might have lucked out on the bearing, but odds are you tore stuff up and will need some new hard parts. Fingers crossed for you...
Heres a video that clearly shows it sitting horizontally being torn apart. And it's not the only one. There are a couple others I saw but this had the most detail throughout. I used it to help figure out which clips come out before which parts. It's easier for me to see an actual part than a description of it. https://youtu.be/wEGUAWGAOto
And thank you Dave for answering about the bearing noise and for wishing me luck. I should be able to start teardown and inspecting Wednesday. But I know to look for the valve body warping and a bearing destroying everything that's precious inside. I'm going to recheck the thickness of the clutches too in case they are burned up. I'll take pics of any damage I find
And thank you Dave for answering about the bearing noise and for wishing me luck. I should be able to start teardown and inspecting Wednesday. But I know to look for the valve body warping and a bearing destroying everything that's precious inside. I'm going to recheck the thickness of the clutches too in case they are burned up. I'll take pics of any damage I find
Tearing apart is not the same as assembly......
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There won't (likely) be much in the way of a thickness difference if clutches are new and burnt.
Here are some crispy clutches for your viewing pleasure:
If they have any dark spots, personally, I'd consider them done. I wouldn't put them back.
IF your current issues are related to you not properly torquing the VB down, there may be the possibility that any warpage caused by it isn't permanent, and proper torquing may fix that particular issue - but assuming for a second that it's not permanent (No guarantee), it's possible that the improper torquing of the VB could have roasted some clutches due to lack of proper pressure, and if one or more bearing fell out of place during assembly, you could have some much bigger issues than roasted clutches waiting for you.
I 'thumb my nose' at SOME torque specs - there are some that it's like 'eh, really good and tight is good enough', but head bolt (or stud) and VB bolts are two that I've dealt with (among some others) that should never be questioned and I'm super anal retentive about. I've never done a lower end rebuild, but I'd be just as 'Anal retentive' with caps and mains - some things 'eh' isn't good enough. If you don't have the proper torque wrench for the task, either get one or don't do it.
I hope that after this evolution, you learn from any mistakes, and have a properly functioning transmission upon re-assembly. Assembling an Allison isn't really rocket science, but there is a 'right way' and attention to detail is critical. One bearing installed backwards (for example) is an expensive mistake.
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Those clutches aren't so bad LOL they have at least a half dozen more limps leftThere won't (likely) be much in the way of a thickness difference if clutches are new and burnt.
Here are some crispy clutches for your viewing pleasure:
If they have any dark spots, personally, I'd consider them done. I wouldn't put them back.
IF your current issues are related to you not properly torquing the VB down, there may be the possibility that any warpage caused by it isn't permanent, and proper torquing may fix that particular issue - but assuming for a second that it's not permanent (No guarantee), it's possible that the improper torquing of the VB could have roasted some clutches due to lack of proper pressure, and if one or more bearing fell out of place during assembly, you could have some much bigger issues than roasted clutches waiting for you.
I 'thumb my nose' at SOME torque specs - there are some that it's like 'eh, really good and tight is good enough', but head bolt (or stud) and VB bolts are two that I've dealt with (among some others) that should never be questioned and I'm super anal retentive about. If you don't have the proper torque wrench for the task, either get one or don't do it.
I hope that after this evolution, you learn from any mistakes, and have a properly functioning transmission upon re-assembly. Assembling an Allison isn't really rocket science, but there is a 'right way' and attention to detail is critical. One bearing installed backwards (for example) is an expensive mistake.
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LOL - one limp is enough to consider them toast (IMO), since it's all downhill from there. And these were from a 'built' trans (With only ONE Limp)... I think it was two years out that it ate itself, on a 3-4 shift IIRC (And the fluid was a NASTY yellowish color after that)... My build has been running (I think) six years at a higher HP level. Not one limp. And I've ABUSED it - BAD (running the 4th gen 6-speed VB with a 5-Speed TCM and hacked harness - doesn't play nice, real problem with the trim and TCC solenoids) But it still lives. :shrug:
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Yeah no doubt. Ran mine on a 100 hp tune for a year till one day I went to pass someone and I was rolling into it when the converter locked. I was doing 70-80 and that woke me up quick on my way to work LOL. Ran it at stock power for some time. Did the SAC sticks since they were due and put a 64mm turbo in. Test drove it before doing the trans and it limped it quickly on the 2-3 shift (they were completely burnt). Built it with one of Evan's kits and I'm at 18k for mileage now at 6-9 months-ish. No problems so far even towing around 10k+ on the DD tune through the hills as long as I mind the RPMs.
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There won't (likely) be much in the way of a thickness difference if clutches are new and burnt.
Here are some crispy clutches for your viewing pleasure:
If they have any dark spots, personally, I'd consider them done. I wouldn't put them back.
IF your current issues are related to you not properly torquing the VB down, there may be the possibility that any warpage caused by it isn't permanent, and proper torquing may fix that particular issue - but assuming for a second that it's not permanent (No guarantee), it's possible that the improper torquing of the VB could have roasted some clutches due to lack of proper pressure, and if one or more bearing fell out of place during assembly, you could have some much bigger issues than roasted clutches waiting for you.
I 'thumb my nose' at SOME torque specs - there are some that it's like 'eh, really good and tight is good enough', but head bolt (or stud) and VB bolts are two that I've dealt with (among some others) that should never be questioned and I'm super anal retentive about. I've never done a lower end rebuild, but I'd be just as 'Anal retentive' with caps and mains - some things 'eh' isn't good enough. If you don't have the proper torque wrench for the task, either get one or don't do it.
I hope that after this evolution, you learn from any mistakes, and have a properly functioning transmission upon re-assembly. Assembling an Allison isn't really rocket science, but there is a 'right way' and attention to detail is critical. One bearing installed backwards (for example) is an expensive mistake.
I agree with you on torque specs. I have built motors before and the mains and head bolts are all that really need torqued. That's why my torque wrench is sized for those. I did torque the bellhousing bolts but 8 ft lbs sounds like a joke. That's about hand tight and I have trust issues with that. Lol. But can't argue with everyone saying I can't do more. I'm expecting to replace c1 and c5 most likely.
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