Eaton OH Pull

[05smoker]

Very good question!
Those that know me know I have truck pulling in my veins. I've seen things come and go and seen classes take off like rockets only to crash and burn (watching it happening again).

This is what i was referring to.

This know it all is done for the night. I have my opinion and you have yours Leadfoot and I don't need it to get any more personal. We're not getting anywhere or solving anything.

And Todd's comments are more than welcome. He has more pulling experience and has tested more parts with his truck than most of us here. And I hope he makes it up to the "mecca" this year sometime.

 

[TNRGreene]

This is what i was referring to.

This know it all is done for the night. I have my opinion and you have yours Leadfoot and I don't need it to get any more personal. We're not getting anywhere or solving anything.

And Todd's comments are more than welcome. He has more pulling experience and has tested more parts with his truck than most of us here. And I hope he makes it up to the "mecca" this year sometime.

Nite Ed
This is how we get things fixed/ironed out.
I am firmly on the fence will this. I can't lean to either side because neither are 100% correct That's is the problem, there is no right & wrong to fix it.
I will be traveling to the holy grounds a couple of times this year :thumb: My POS will be at home holding down the carport though & I'll be free to bench race(insert drink here) with all :woott: :rofl: :hug:

 

[Leadfoot]

Sorry, late and cranky. I apologize for getting personal. As for Todd, he's travelled a good distance to go to pulls, so I could see him travelling to the mecca one day :hug:

 

[Rhall]

Lead, i do not live in those 3 states either, but im around pulling enought to know, that your not going to compete with 400-500hp in workstock where pulling is big just a fact. Nobody ever said that everybody else doesnt have an opinion, you take what people say, and make them sound selfish or arrogant just because they dont agree with you.

Heres where you went wrong with this argument. YOU are asking pullers to come to YOUR level because YOU do not want to have to make a big jump, and since we do not want too, you are calling us selfish. That is bull$hit. Selfish is trying to build a class to make it easier to build a truck to your level. You went wrong by already admitting your worrying about the jump, If you dont want to make the jump, stay in workstock, because even at 600hp you are entry level. Do not try to bring the class to you. None of us here had it "easy", why do you think you should?

This has nothing to do with making turbo teching and clearing up "grey areas and loopholes" as you say. Take for example the 2.60-2.65 grey area... it will still exist, now it will exist with a restrictor plate, and a turbo. I do not see any grey area about 1/8th" protrusion, cut and dry.

Start your own restrictor plate class, with whatever turbo you choose, then you run it. Maybe everybody will leave the 2.6 class that sets now.... i wouldnt bet money on it though.

 

[Leadfoot]

Lead, i do not live in those 3 states either, but im around pulling enought to know, that your not going to compete with 400-500hp in workstock where pulling is big just a fact. Nobody ever said that everybody else doesnt have an opinion, you take what people say, and make them sound selfish or arrogant just because they dont agree with you.

Heres where you went wrong with this argument. YOU are asking pullers to come to YOUR level because YOU do not want to have to make a big jump, and since we do not want too, you are calling us selfish. That is bull$hit. Selfish is trying to build a class to make it easier to build a truck to your level. You went wrong by already admitting your worrying about the jump, If you dont want to make the jump, stay in workstock, because even at 600hp you are entry level. Do not try to bring the class to you. None of us here had it "easy", why do you think you should?

This has nothing to do with making turbo teching and clearing up "grey areas and loopholes" as you say. Take for example the 2.60-2.65 grey area... it will still exist, now it will exist with a restrictor plate, and a turbo. I do not see any grey area about 1/8th" protrusion, cut and dry.

Start your own restrictor plate class, with whatever turbo you choose, then you run it. Maybe everybody will leave the 2.6 class that sets now.... i wouldnt bet money on it though.

I'm not asking anyone to "come to my level", I don't even pull with the diesel anymore (haven't the past two years, just look at our clubs results), relegated to tow vehicle status. It doesn't mean I can't simpathize with someone looking to get into the sport at ground level and take the next step up....

Sometimes people can't see the forrest because they are amongst the trees. Sometimes it's takes an outside perspective to see what's going on in the big picture. If I was new to this or didn't care, it would be one thing. I would be willing to bet I've put more time into promoting, changing, encouraging pulling (especially in the off season) in our area than most due anywhere. Does that make me right......NO, but having NOT pulled in two years with the diesel, it has given me an opportunity to talk to those that do and their frustrations and concerns. People come up to me bitching and say they hate this or that and then say "I don't blame you for not pulling anymore", when in all actuality the reason I stopped pulling is because I realized I could no longer afford to run two trucks and deal with a major breakdown on the diesel (only reason for not pulling). I even considered running both trucks this year, but after taxes, realized it's not financially prudent. Doesn't mean I'm not helping many others and staying involved.

I have been an advocate for diesel pulling as I think it's the thing that will take pulling to the next level. I actually disagree with what "our" club is doing as far as classes, but again it was not up to me (maybe a good thing, who knows). We have a 2.5 class (which I have tried to limit as much as I can), and then a jump to 3.0. I don't agree with it, but it wasn't my decision. It's trialed for one year and if the trucks don't come, the new President said he was going to get rid of the classes......

If the restrictor is proven to work, I WILL be making it a point to get it implemented into our entry level class as that's where I believe it will do most good.

Nobody answered the question as to how much it would take for the average guy to get competitive in 2.6 with a true workstock truck though (interesting).

And I don't care if you live in PullTown USA or not, the sport (and all sports) needs a true entry level class. Workstock classes that are 600HP are not entry level. They may be entry level because that is what is "allowed" in certain areas, but it does not make it right.

Again, not saying a restrictor would have to go into the current 2.6 class, just offered it as a suggestion to combat the bitching. If the current threads bitching about the 2.6 class didn't show up after the first pull of the year, I would not even have suggested it....before the season even got under way.


Regardless if the restrictor works for pulling, racing, arm chair debates, etc. aren't you the least bit interested (just from a curiosity standpoint) of whether or not it will limit people to X hp regardless of turbo size? Even if it works and doesn't get utilized in pulling, I for one am curious to see if it works as many think it will.

The nice part about it, is either way, we will have the answers as to what going to happen to the 2.6 class in 3-4 years. From a sport standpoint, it might be nice to look back at this and have you guys throw it in my face because the restrictors were NEVER used and the class is dominating the country and has 50-60 trucks or more at each event (that would be awesome as far as uniting the states). Problem is only time will tell, and I hope I'm not correct about the $$$ and drivetrains. If it becomes an issue it will be too little too late and there will be no going back (my biggest fear).

On that note, good luck this year pulling! It should be very exciting!

 

[McRat]

800-900rwhp falls in the "your $20,000 engine is going to fail at some point"

650-799rwhp falls into the "you need a $20,000 engine, but at least you will probably need just 1 of them".

500-600rwhp falls into the "whew, now my can still drink beer other than Natty Lite, because the rebuild didn't eliminate my beer fund." Or perhaps more importantly, "Whew, I don't have to disassemble my 2009 work truck to be reasonably competitive".

 

[05smoker]

Nobody answered the question as to how much it would take for the average guy to get competitive in 2.6 with a true workstock truck though (interesting).

And I don't care if you live in PullTown USA or not, the sport (and all sports) needs a true entry level class. Workstock classes that are 600HP are not entry level. They may be entry level because that is what is "allowed" in certain areas, but it does not make it right.

Again, not saying a restrictor would have to go into the current 2.6 class, just offered it as a suggestion to combat the bitching. If the current threads bitching about the 2.6 class didn't show up after the first pull of the year, I would not even have suggested it....before the season even got under way.

That is not an easy question to answer. How much you do on your own, how much you can get a sponsor to throw in, what parts you actually decide are must haves and how many parts you can get used all factor in. If you just dropped the truck off at a reputable shop and said build it, I'd be scared to see the price tag. I have less in my truck, trailer and tow rig than most have in their pull truck.

The problem also is the turbo is just one factor. $2k for the turbo is big money, but will the restrictor cut is back to where you don't build the motor, the trans, the fuel system, the axles, the intercooler, the tuning, .......?

If any organization wanted to use a restrictor tube, I have no issue with it going in WS. If you want to make it a beginner class, that would work for a while. But the guy with the deepest pockets will still buy the other parts and build the motor and find every possible way to get it back to 600hp if possible. Is it right in WS to do that. i personally don't think so but people will still do it.

Am I interested in the results of a restrictor test? YES. However I am more interested in the difference in what can be gotten back via tuning, different chargers, heads, exhaust, etc. If one charger comes out 50hp over another, and their will be, your $100 tube just forced everyone to yet another charger swap and that charger will now be marked up another 50%. All the while, the guy with the street truck will still not spend any money and will still be getting 30 ft put on him.

Bottom line is, if you want a beginner class, focus on WS, not 2.6. It's not a beginner class and was never designed to be.

 

[madmatt]

And I don't care if you live in PullTown USA or not, the sport (and all sports) needs a true entry level class. Workstock classes that are 600HP are not entry level. They may be entry level because that is what is "allowed" in certain areas, but it does not make it right.

um not stirring the pot but 600rwhp street trucks are not uncommon in my area and really anymore is pretty easy to acheive with commonly available parts. 600whp is the new 500whp,,,

 

[Leadfoot]

05smoker

I NEVER said 2.6 is (or even should be) a beginners class. It's so FAR beyond that (you and I agree). And I like the avatar tag :thumb:

I, like you, would like to see what tuning and "other tweaks" work and/or can be used to gain back power lost from a restrictor tube. If as you say, one turbo (or even a few) come out producing more than others you are absolutely correct that the money saved will then be forced to be spent on Turbo X if you want to be a winner. Problem is NOBODY knows if that is the case or not.

As to 600HP street trucks, there are areas with 800HP street trucks. Technically Nasty Girl was a great street truck and was at 1036rwhp....

Remember "common" does not = "beginner"
Yes maybe guys didn't compete until they had some more HP, but that is mostly due to the fact that they knew their local workstock class was no longer "entry level OR beginner".

Those guys "built" those trucks.

If a workstock class was offered, they would not compete (that's where 2.6 should have come in). Problem is 2.6 is WAY beyond 600HP, so you have a LARGE group of guys who are too hot for WS (or pull in it anyways and beat on the small fish), or are the small fish in the 2.6 pond.

Ideally there would be a class for a 523rwhp, blue, crewcab dually with trainhorns class but that's the other extreme.

Local fairs and even enthusiest groups hold pulls for their local talent (and it ends up being a competition of the 600hp street trucks to see who can beat who). On a national level it should be broken down differently as the trucks in your neighborhood are badder than the trucks in the next, but don't even hold a candle to the trucks 4 neighborhoods over.

Pulling "clubs" over the years catered to local talent which was great locally for a few years, but caused the inability to go from venue to venue without discrepancies.

If nationally all Workstock classes went to stock turbo, stock stick, stock fueling system, there would be alot of people who upgraded who would complain, but if they went to spec turbo size, unlimited injector, unlimited single fuel system there would be others who complain.

As you can see, you will NEVER satisfy everyone. That being said, sit back and look at what is best for ENTIRE nation and for the sport in general, and you will see we have not done it (myself included). Pulling should be much bigger across the country, but clubs (and even some of the big Orgs.) have prevented that by doing what they've done.

If everybody is happy (and by all the bitching that goes on, they are not), so be it.

I'm just saying the way it should have been, probably will never EVER get there, but unlike others I'm not willing to give up....

 

[05smoker]

05smoker

And I like the avatar tag :thumb:

:spit:

:hug:

I still think the 523 hp should be WS. If it needs tamed down, like I said earlier, maybe a restrictor tube is the answer to the Cheetahs and Danville chargers. Maybe its not. I just don't want it in 2.6.

 

[McRat]

Workstock should never be confused with 2.6, nor should there be a guarantee that 2.6 is a "stronger" class.

2.6 permits older diesels to be competitive with newer diesels. They cannot compete effectively with a charger of the factory size. Allowing 2.6" to push 800+ rwhp pretty much excludes the 7.3/6.0 Fords and other models from being in the hunt.

Workstock is dominated by common rail newer trucks, unless "stock appearing" is in the rules. Then all bets are off, since some folk think stock appearing means it looks like it pumps air into the engine.

 

[madmatt]

As to 600HP street trucks, there are areas with 800HP street trucks. Technically Nasty Girl was a great street truck and was at 1036rwhp....

Remember "common" does not = "beginner"
Yes maybe guys didn't compete until they had some more HP, but that is mostly due to the fact that they knew their local workstock class was no longer "entry level OR beginner".

Those guys "built" those trucks.

.

600whp street trucks are just a few bolt on's and some tuning away thanks to technology and innovation. If you can't keep up then stay home. Sorry thats just the honest truth. If you want a complete beginners class try what we have at some local pulls called pure stock which is just that. Not so much as a removed muffler or swapped intake allowed. There are cases where guys try to run programmers but are usually kicked out over to much smoke or just flat whooping everyone by 40'. It'd take 15 classes for everyone to fit in perfectly and would take weeks to tech so some guys are gonna hook, get their asses handed to them and either decide they want to step up and compete and spend the money, decide it was still fun and keep pulling anyway or just get out. either way is fine by me.

 

[Leadfoot]

600whp street trucks are just a few bolt on's and some tuning away thanks to technology and innovation. If you can't keep up then stay home. Sorry thats just the honest truth. If you want a complete beginners class try what we have at some local pulls called pure stock which is just that. Not so much as a removed muffler or swapped intake allowed. There are cases where guys try to run programmers but are usually kicked out over to much smoke or just flat whooping everyone by 40'. It'd take 15 classes for everyone to fit in perfectly and would take weeks to tech so some guys are gonna hook, get their asses handed to them and either decide they want to step up and compete and spend the money, decide it was still fun and keep pulling anyway or just get out. either way is fine by me.

I understand what you are saying (to a degree), the problem with "pure stock" is a pure stock 7.3 WILL get it's azz handed to them by a factory LML or common rail Dodge. If the 7.3 or 6.0 wants to "bolt on" accessories and compete forget about 2.6....(tell me how many "old tech" diesels besides the "Mighty 12 Valves" do you see in 2.6)?

Most WorkStock classes were setup to allow older technologies handicaps to compete. A 600hp workstock class is gonna kill the 7.3 turbo and most likely 6.0 unless they are REALLY BUILT (which takes away the aspect of "beginner class").

And YES, there is not enough classes for everyone to win and there are some diesels that will probably never do well (other than their own class) such as the naturally aspirated diesels, but there are a large number of old diesels looking for a place to pull semi-competitively (not just for shits and giggles).

I'm not a Ford guy by any means, but I see a TON of old 7.3 turbos in the parking lots at truck pulls and alot of die hard Powerstroke guys (their the ones that complain the most to me and wished they had other venues to be competitive). Do we just say Fuk'em and tell them to spend some coin on a newer truck when their's runs perfectly fine, and I was the one accused of being selfish....

You can say Fuk'em because YOU (or your buddy's) don't have a 7.3 or 6.0, but there are many out there that would like to pull and know they aren't going to compete in pure stock OR 2.6., but could stand a slight chance (at least enough to keep interest) in a 400-500HP Workstock class.........your thoughts?

Again, not trying argue or piss in your Cheerios, just trying to discuss what's out there and what I see on a daily basis. Ford guys didn't have much to cheer about the past few years and we basically put the screws to them by making the entry level class out of reach of even the most popular truck they have built to date. When I first saw Duramax's pulling locally, there were guys with 7.3's that were beating them (granted the DMax's were STOCK) and the 7.3's were "tuned", but they were happy. We still have a guy with a 7.3 that pulls with us in our entry level class (how many can say that)? He doesn't win, but does respectful for what he has, and he ENJOYS it (which is what its all about especially at the entry level). The club has pushed and allowed things that are now going to probably make him not want to compete, and I guarantee if we go to 600HP in an entry level class he will be gone....

 

[jheyob]

Ideally there would be a class for a 523rwhp, blue, crewcab dually with trainhorns class but that's the other extreme.

Isn't that what the fair pulls are aimed at?

At least around in the Mecca at most of the fair pulls this type of truck would do well in WS, and the guys with the Fords would not do awful and still have a good time at it. I've yet to meet a Ford guy that really wants to pull workstock at a national pull, they have a good time just messing around at the local pulls.

IDK I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems most of the Ford and older truck crowd is content with just watching a national event, even if the class would be handicapped for them. Same goes for drag racing.

 

[ecc_33]

If you read, uncorrected numbers, non stock injector, non stock CP3.

Again not easy to tech, but would still be cheating (whether or not he gets caught would be another thing).

Again show me a few stock charger, stock sticked, stock cp3 trucks over 550......edit: which is what workstock should be.

When Craig aka "diesel pilot" and I dynoed our trucks same day. His was a lly efi, built tranny, lift pump. He made 498hp iirc. Just right before that same day, dyno, load, etc. etc. My truck made 544 hp. At the time only had 95 gph lift pump, efi live, built tranny and cold air intake with the filter still on!!! That was with only about 2 hours of tuning. I didn't have a fan on the front of the truck and the air intake temps were like 165* iirc. What I know now there could have been more. How much? Prob not much but still left some on the table. That was early 07. On edit: those were uncorrected numbers..... I don't really like dynos other than a tuning tool. With those same tunes Diesel pilot ran 12.8-'s and I ran a 12.95 with a 4 inch lift at 7300 pounds....So im guessing my truck was making around that with that setup and was always a strong puller at that level. So since I can't afford to compete with the 2.6 guys anymore do you think it would be ok for me to bolt my old stock turbo on...Take off the second injection pump. Keep the modded "stock" appearing pump on. And run my 4.56 gears so i can hang 4th gear. with my setup on my truck + the little knowledge that I have I feel I shouldn't. But I could

 

[juddski88]

I understand what you are saying (to a degree), the problem with "pure stock" is a pure stock 7.3 WILL get it's azz handed to them by a factory LML or common rail Dodge. If the 7.3 or 6.0 wants to "bolt on" accessories and compete forget about 2.6....(tell me how many "old tech" diesels besides the "Mighty 12 Valves" do you see in 2.6)?

Most WorkStock classes were setup to allow older technologies handicaps to compete. A 600hp workstock class is gonna kill the 7.3 turbo and most likely 6.0 unless they are REALLY BUILT (which takes away the aspect of "beginner class").

And YES, there is not enough classes for everyone to win and there are some diesels that will probably never do well (other than their own class) such as the naturally aspirated diesels, but there are a large number of old diesels looking for a place to pull semi-competitively (not just for shits and giggles).

I'm not a Ford guy by any means, but I see a TON of old 7.3 turbos in the parking lots at truck pulls and alot of die hard Powerstroke guys (their the ones that complain the most to me and wished they had other venues to be competitive). Do we just say Fuk'em and tell them to spend some coin on a newer truck when their's runs perfectly fine, and I was the one accused of being selfish....

You can say Fuk'em because YOU (or your buddy's) don't have a 7.3 or 6.0, but there are many out there that would like to pull and know they aren't going to compete in pure stock OR 2.6., but could stand a slight chance (at least enough to keep interest) in a 400-500HP Workstock class.........your thoughts?

Again, not trying argue or piss in your Cheerios, just trying to discuss what's out there and what I see on a daily basis. Ford guys didn't have much to cheer about the past few years and we basically put the screws to them by making the entry level class out of reach of even the most popular truck they have built to date. When I first saw Duramax's pulling locally, there were guys with 7.3's that were beating them (granted the DMax's were STOCK) and the 7.3's were "tuned", but they were happy. We still have a guy with a 7.3 that pulls with us in our entry level class (how many can say that)? He doesn't win, but does respectful for what he has, and he ENJOYS it (which is what its all about especially at the entry level). The club has pushed and allowed things that are now going to probably make him not want to compete, and I guarantee if we go to 600HP in an entry level class he will be gone....

What did we do to make it harder for him for this year? I thought the restrictor would make it easier for him to compete..

 

[Leadfoot]

Isn't that what the fair pulls are aimed at?

At least around in the Mecca at most of the fair pulls this type of truck would do well in WS, and the guys with the Fords would not do awful and still have a good time at it. I've yet to meet a Ford guy that really wants to pull workstock at a national pull, they have a good time just messing around at the local pulls.

IDK I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems most of the Ford and older truck crowd is content with just watching a national event, even if the class would be handicapped for them. Same goes for drag racing.

Understandable, and around the mecca that might be the case. If I owned a Ford (and/or older technology truck) and knew that it took 600HP to compete in the workstock class, I would be VERY content just to watch. Momma didn't raise no fool , but if I lived in an area where it was restricted (either mechanically or via the rules) to far less, I would definitely try my hand....

It is what it is, and hopefully as many people as possible will be happy with it that way.

Arguing about it isn't really solving anything :hug:

 

[Leadfoot]

What did we do to make it harder for him for this year? I thought the restrictor would make it easier for him to compete..

EXACTLY.

It "should" make it A LOT easier for him to compete IF we get the restrictors.
Edit: Without the restrictors, we have allowed aftermarket 2.5 turbos, aftermarket injectors and aftermarket single CP3's. He does not stand a chance against that without the restrictors (that's what I was referring to). Problem is I have yet to see a restrictor "in hand" and/or tested. I'm not upset with you (you have helped a great bunch), but it's frustrating when everybody is bashing this idea and it has yet to be proved/disproved.

Have you sourced the 2.5 restrictors yet?
These will have to be plumbed into the intake and although it shouldn't take much to do so, it will take time.

My phone gets rung off the hook at times, and I no longer have the answers. I keep telling people to wait and see... NOT an answer I like to give.

Some people try to make things better for everyone, but then get bashed in the process. You KNOW what I went through last year with the gasser class (reason for splitting it in two), and I NEVER want to go through that again. We ended up getting a true starter class (which the club has desperately needed for years), but it took me fighting tooth and nail and boycotting the last few pulls to do it. You know it killed me not to pull (or even be there), but I had to do what I thought was right. It worked, but at what cost (me missing out on what I love to do most).

I went from having fun for YEARS pulling and being around to pullers, to almost packing it up and saying goodbye. I think the only thing that saved me last year was the 19 year old kid (Gary) from up North. He travelled his butt off to pull with us and was ready to say goodbye to the club for what the club did last year. He and his father thanked me for standing up for what was right and said they would be back again this year (if not for that, I would not be sitting here typing).

Edit2: So far this year, I've been to two monthly meetings, 4 ad-hoc meetings, met with officials from Franklin County (and yes we will be pulling at the Franklin County Fair :woott, spent TONS of hours going over the rules, printing rulebooks for general review, going over the bylaws with Cherie, and working with Stevie building COMPETITORS motors, and will be one of the guys heading up he sled repair in the spring, and I no longer am an official with the club. I do it because I LOVE DOING THIS, but it's cost me emotionally the last two years. And it hurts when those that do NOTHING are the first to bitch (and you know who they are).

So sorry if I'm a little bit bitter (and sorry if gets directed your way), I don't really mean it.

On another note, how's the truck coming?

 

[ecc_33]

It is what it is, and hopefully as many people as possible will be happy with it that way.

Arguing about it isn't really solving anything :hug:

Could not put it any better....That is why this year im going to try something new and run the 12.0 index class....Drag racing with a sled pulling setup will be interesting to say the least:rofl:

 

[05smoker]

Could not put it any better....That is why this year im going to try something new and run the 12.0 index class....Drag racing with a sled pulling setup will be interesting to say the least:rofl:

I think you are just scared.:spit:


No worries. After I pull and get my butt kicked we can :beer2: