Eaton OH Pull

[juddski88]

EXACTLY.

It "should" make it A LOT easier for him to compete IF we get the restrictors.
Edit: Without the restrictors, we have allowed aftermarket 2.5 turbos, aftermarket injectors and aftermarket single CP3's. He does not stand a chance against that without the restrictors (that's what I was referring to). Problem is I have yet to see a restrictor "in hand" and/or tested. I'm not upset with you (you have helped a great bunch), but it's frustrating when everybody is bashing this idea and it has yet to be proved/disproved.

Have you sourced the 2.5 restrictors yet?
These will have to be plumbed into the intake and although it shouldn't take much to do so, it will take time.

My phone gets rung off the hook at times, and I no longer have the answers. I keep telling people to wait and see... NOT an answer I like to give.

Some people try to make things better for everyone, but then get bashed in the process. You KNOW what I went through last year with the gasser class (reason for splitting it in two), and I NEVER want to go through that again. We ended up getting a true starter class (which the club has desperately needed for years), but it took me fighting tooth and nail and boycotting the last few pulls to do it. You know it killed me not to pull (or even be there), but I had to do what I thought was right. It worked, but at what cost (me missing out on what I love to do most).

I went from having fun for YEARS pulling and being around to pullers, to almost packing it up and saying goodbye. I think the only thing that saved me last year was the 19 year old kid (Gary) from up North. He travelled his butt off to pull with us and was ready to say goodbye to the club for what the club did last year. He and his father thanked me for standing up for what was right and said they would be back again this year (if not for that, I would not be sitting here typing).

So sorry if I'm a little bit bitter (and sorry if gets directed your way), I don't really mean it.

On another note, how's the truck coming?

No Problem Chris, I haven't had any contact with the guy who was going to get us the restrictors because I havent heard from Lyle how they will be paid for. Obviously the club has money this year, and it will be an investment of sorts to buy these and rent them out to those that will need them. I just havent been able to make the last couple meetings because my drill weekends are the same weekends as the meetings. Ill call Lyle tomorrow morning and see what he says.

as for my truck, Im just waiting for it to be cleaned and detailed so i can go pick it up and bring it back here to finish up. i was hoping to get it back today but its looking like maybe friday instead. theres some pics on here in the build thread and on my facebook.

 

[Leadfoot]

No Problem Chris, I haven't had any contact with the guy who was going to get us the restrictors because I havent heard from Lyle how they will be paid for. Obviously the club has money this year, and it will be an investment of sorts to buy these and rent them out to those that will need them. I just havent been able to make the last couple meetings because my drill weekends are the same weekends as the meetings. Ill call Lyle tomorrow morning and see what he says.

as for my truck, Im just waiting for it to be cleaned and detailed so i can go pick it up and bring it back here to finish up. i was hoping to get it back today but its looking like maybe friday instead. theres some pics on here in the build thread and on my facebook.

I can deal with Lyle (we talk just about every day). The question is how much are they going to cost (individually or in bulk). I guarantee he won't do anything without a quote. That will dictate how we proceed. If you can get that information to me or him, we can come up with a gameplan.

I saw the pics and it's looking SWEET! Edit: I can't wait to see it in person.

Have you gotten all the wiring taken care of?

Edit2: Do you have drill during our next meeting (not this Saturday, but next?). Also is John available, I know Lyle had questions for him?

 

[juddski88]

Ill tell Jon to call him tomorrow. The wiring is not done yet, that is the first thing we are going to be working on when it gets back here. And next saturday I have tickets to see OAR outdoors at Okemo, sooooo I have to miss that one, sorry. I need to get Sheri my membership fees though soon. and Ill let you know when I hear back about the price quote. this whole next week, as long as I have the truck in my possession, I will be working on it nearly everyday.

 

[madmatt]

I understand what you are saying (to a degree), the problem with "pure stock" is a pure stock 7.3 WILL get it's azz handed to them by a factory LML or common rail Dodge. If the 7.3 or 6.0 wants to "bolt on" accessories and compete forget about 2.6....(tell me how many "old tech" diesels besides the "Mighty 12 Valves" do you see in 2.6)?

Most WorkStock classes were setup to allow older technologies handicaps to compete. A 600hp workstock class is gonna kill the 7.3 turbo and most likely 6.0 unless they are REALLY BUILT (which takes away the aspect of "beginner class").

And YES, there is not enough classes for everyone to win and there are some diesels that will probably never do well (other than their own class) such as the naturally aspirated diesels, but there are a large number of old diesels looking for a place to pull semi-competitively (not just for shits and giggles).

I'm not a Ford guy by any means, but I see a TON of old 7.3 turbos in the parking lots at truck pulls and alot of die hard Powerstroke guys (their the ones that complain the most to me and wished they had other venues to be competitive). Do we just say Fuk'em and tell them to spend some coin on a newer truck when their's runs perfectly fine, and I was the one accused of being selfish....

You can say Fuk'em because YOU (or your buddy's) don't have a 7.3 or 6.0, but there are many out there that would like to pull and know they aren't going to compete in pure stock OR 2.6., but could stand a slight chance (at least enough to keep interest) in a 400-500HP Workstock class.........your thoughts?

Again, not trying argue or piss in your Cheerios, just trying to discuss what's out there and what I see on a daily basis. Ford guys didn't have much to cheer about the past few years and we basically put the screws to them by making the entry level class out of reach of even the most popular truck they have built to date. When I first saw Duramax's pulling locally, there were guys with 7.3's that were beating them (granted the DMax's were STOCK) and the 7.3's were "tuned", but they were happy. We still have a guy with a 7.3 that pulls with us in our entry level class (how many can say that)? He doesn't win, but does respectful for what he has, and he ENJOYS it (which is what its all about especially at the entry level). The club has pushed and allowed things that are now going to probably make him not want to compete, and I guarantee if we go to 600HP in an entry level class he will be gone....

so now it comes out what you were really saying was you want a class where the old 7.3s can compete??? so next you gonna ask a guy with his 365hp LMM to detune so a <250 hp ford can hang?? it is what it is,, the new shit is just stronger and the old stuff will not compete with the same set of mods. Sucks for the old school ford boys but thats just life sometimes.

 

[Leadfoot]

so now it comes out what you were really saying was you want a class where the old 7.3s can compete??? so next you gonna ask a guy with his 365hp LMM to detune so a <250 hp ford can hang?? it is what it is,, the new shit is just stronger and the old stuff will not compete with the same set of mods. Sucks for the old school ford boys but thats just life sometimes.

Fuk'em?

And I never said a 365hp had to detune. I believe I said 4-500hp was acceptable. Yes the older technology trucks would take some work to get there, but doable. But its beneath most pulling gods, so no need to even consider it. That being said, I'm done with this. We should no longer call it "diesel truck pulling", but rather "You poor bastards who bought older diesels shouldn't even be considered truck pulling". It works well for getting new pullers and advancing the sport.

I can feel myself getting a little angry, so before I say something I may regret...goodnight all.

 

[madmatt]

no not fuk'em,, I just don't see anyway to bring the "antique" rigs you're talking about up to a level to compete with even a mildly modified rig of today's caliber. a built trans, delete pipe and a efi live tune can net over 500 rwhp. Know what it takes to get a 7.3 there?? hint hint,, ya ain't gonna do it with the stock injector/stock pump rule you're talking about. so then what special exceptions for old trucks? it won't be long till you have rules more in depth then today's 2.6 class and ones that are harder to tech.

 

[Rhall]

I understand what you are saying (to a degree), the problem with "pure stock" is a pure stock 7.3 WILL get it's azz handed to them by a factory LML or common rail Dodge. If the 7.3 or 6.0 wants to "bolt on" accessories and compete forget about 2.6....(tell me how many "old tech" diesels besides the "Mighty 12 Valves" do you see in 2.6)?

Most WorkStock classes were setup to allow older technologies handicaps to compete. A 600hp workstock class is gonna kill the 7.3 turbo and most likely 6.0 unless they are REALLY BUILT (which takes away the aspect of "beginner class").

And YES, there is not enough classes for everyone to win and there are some diesels that will probably never do well (other than their own class) such as the naturally aspirated diesels, but there are a large number of old diesels looking for a place to pull semi-competitively (not just for shits and giggles).

I'm not a Ford guy by any means, but I see a TON of old 7.3 turbos in the parking lots at truck pulls and alot of die hard Powerstroke guys (their the ones that complain the most to me and wished they had other venues to be competitive). Do we just say Fuk'em and tell them to spend some coin on a newer truck when their's runs perfectly fine, and I was the one accused of being selfish....

You can say Fuk'em because YOU (or your buddy's) don't have a 7.3 or 6.0, but there are many out there that would like to pull and know they aren't going to compete in pure stock OR 2.6., but could stand a slight chance (at least enough to keep interest) in a 400-500HP Workstock class.........your thoughts?

Again, not trying argue or piss in your Cheerios, just trying to discuss what's out there and what I see on a daily basis. Ford guys didn't have much to cheer about the past few years and we basically put the screws to them by making the entry level class out of reach of even the most popular truck they have built to date. When I first saw Duramax's pulling locally, there were guys with 7.3's that were beating them (granted the DMax's were STOCK) and the 7.3's were "tuned", but they were happy. We still have a guy with a 7.3 that pulls with us in our entry level class (how many can say that)? He doesn't win, but does respectful for what he has, and he ENJOYS it (which is what its all about especially at the entry level). The club has pushed and allowed things that are now going to probably make him not want to compete, and I guarantee if we go to 600HP in an entry level class he will be gone....

Well, the way i see it, nobody had any sympathy for us when all we had was the 6.5.... I mean, theres lots of them out there too, then maybe we should lower it to 300hp so they can compete? Not trying to be a smartass, but like you said earlier, where does it stop with the horsepower? Kinda the same concept in trying to lowering it.

 

[Rhall]

We should no longer call it "diesel truck pulling", but rather "You poor bastards who bought older diesels shouldn't even be considered truck pulling". It works well for getting new pullers and advancing the sport.

.

That was a rather dumb comment considering the 12valves really have the upper hand it this sport.

 

[Leadfoot]

That was a rather dumb comment considering the 12valves really have the upper hand it this sport.

How is it dumb. I even stated the 12 valves are doing well in 2.6. Problem is, MUCH easier for 12 valve to make power vs. other technology of the same vintage.

Last I checked, the 7.3 was (and maybe still) the most popular (by units sold) diesel of its era by far (not just by 1 or 2 units). While many will not chance hooking a new 40-50+K truck to a sled, most guys with older truck don't mind. As far as numbers (reaching new pullers), it's a HUGE market missed. While there are die-hard 6.5 guys, the numbers aren't the same and compared to the 7.3's in the parking lots at pulls they pale in comparison number wise.

As you know, truck pulling has never been fair and most likely never will be fair, but WE have the power to dictate what's allowed and what's not. We can force rules that help keep the playing field inviting (not necessarily "fair"), or we can dismiss trucks and people and move on. We have proved (even without restrictor) that keeping power levels sane (for the type of class it is), that a 7.3T can do respectfully (at least enough to come back), why is it so "impossible" for others?

Maybe part of the problem is classes. Workstock was supposed to be as close to pure stock as possible (where allowances were made to keep an even field), 2.5 was the "next step up", and 2.6 was the beginning of the "big leagues" where chances are not everyone could compete. Problem is groups allowed workstock to become something else and it killed 2.5. As workstock and 2.6 grow in HP, the more people get excluded....again it is what it is...I was hoping to try and change it, but it looks like nobody cares.

Many on here say try it once and you're hooked, look at the number of potential pullers you miss out on. I'm not talking just "old trucks", as the entry level class gets higher in HP, the more people feel they don't have a chance and won't even try. Is that what's best for the sport (on a national level)?

We will probably NEVER agree, which is fine, we've all said how we feel. We can keep arguing/explaining till we are blue, but I'ld rather put my energy elsewhere.

Thanks for the feedback.
Chris

 

[AdaMax]

heres an idea . Why don't all these old school guys get together and have their own class within a class . They obviously will pass tech in a work stock class . They can start a small organization to compete against one another and still hook anywhere theres a work stock . I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ but that would be the only way I see it happening ( around here at least ) . They could talk to the organization putting on the pull and let them know what they are doing and the announcer could let the crowd know that " the last 5 trucks in this class are a private organization thats trying to build steam in the truck pulling world "Nostalgia Class " ". The only downfall would be no payout but that could be worked out with each other before the hook (every one throws in $10 ) . Just an idea don't flame me for it we don't have that problem around here that I'm aware of .

 

[TNRGreene]

heres an idea . Why don't all these old school guys get together and have their own class within a class . They obviously will pass tech in a work stock class . They can start a small organization to compete against one another and still hook anywhere theres a work stock . I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ but that would be the only way I see it happening ( around here at least ) . They could talk to the organization putting on the pull and let them know what they are doing and the announcer could let the crowd know that " the last 5 trucks in this class are a private organization thats trying to build steam in the truck pulling world "Nostalgia Class " ". The only downfall would be no payout but that could be worked out with each other before the hook (every one throws in $10 ) . Just an idea don't flame me for it we don't have that problem around here that I'm aware of .

I don't see a class within a class. I can't see a promoter caring.
Ll

 

[madmatt]

How is it dumb. I even stated the 12 valves are doing well in 2.6. Problem is, MUCH easier for 12 valve to make power vs. other technology of the same vintage.

Last I checked, the 7.3 was (and maybe still) the most popular (by units sold) diesel of its era by far (not just by 1 or 2 units). While many will not chance hooking a new 40-50+K truck to a sled, most guys with older truck don't mind. As far as numbers (reaching new pullers), it's a HUGE market missed. While there are die-hard 6.5 guys, the numbers aren't the same and compared to the 7.3's in the parking lots at pulls they pale in comparison number wise.

As you know, truck pulling has never been fair and most likely never will be fair, but WE have the power to dictate what's allowed and what's not. We can force rules that help keep the playing field inviting (not necessarily "fair"), or we can dismiss trucks and people and move on. We have proved (even without restrictor) that keeping power levels sane (for the type of class it is), that a 7.3T can do respectfully (at least enough to come back), why is it so "impossible" for others?

Maybe part of the problem is classes. Workstock was supposed to be as close to pure stock as possible (where allowances were made to keep an even field), 2.5 was the "next step up", and 2.6 was the beginning of the "big leagues" where chances are not everyone could compete. Problem is groups allowed workstock to become something else and it killed 2.5. As workstock and 2.6 grow in HP, the more people get excluded....again it is what it is...I was hoping to try and change it, but it looks like nobody cares.

Many on here say try it once and you're hooked, look at the number of potential pullers you miss out on. I'm not talking just "old trucks", as the entry level class gets higher in HP, the more people feel they don't have a chance and won't even try. Is that what's best for the sport (on a national level)?

We will probably NEVER agree, which is fine, we've all said how we feel. We can keep arguing/explaining till we are blue, but I'ld rather put my energy elsewhere.

Thanks for the feedback.
Chris

I think it's different people's interpretation of "sane" HP levels for a working truck/street truck that is holding us up. It does suck you can't make a class where everyone wins but there is always gonna be a looser and he may be pissed/heartbroke no matter how you break it down for him.

 

[Leadfoot]

I don't see a class within a class. I can't see a promoter caring.
Ll

I've found (at least for us), its not an issue for promoters as they like a more diverse show AND more diverse fan base (more money for them). The issue is EVERYBODY pays X dollars for a hook fee and then these guys have to toss in extra money for a chance to win $50 while the guys who paid less get to win a lot more. And with talking to them its more of a pride issue than money issue (i can't say I blame them). Whereas when a club takes them into consideration from the start its a win/win.

 

[Rhall]

How is it dumb. I even stated the 12 valves are doing well in 2.6. Problem is, MUCH easier for 12 valve to make power vs. other technology of the same vintage.

Last I checked, the 7.3 was (and maybe still) the most popular (by units sold) diesel of its era by far (not just by 1 or 2 units). While many will not chance hooking a new 40-50+K truck to a sled, most guys with older truck don't mind. As far as numbers (reaching new pullers), it's a HUGE market missed. While there are die-hard 6.5 guys, the numbers aren't the same and compared to the 7.3's in the parking lots at pulls they pale in comparison number wise.

As you know, truck pulling has never been fair and most likely never will be fair, but WE have the power to dictate what's allowed and what's not. We can force rules that help keep the playing field inviting (not necessarily "fair"), or we can dismiss trucks and people and move on. We have proved (even without restrictor) that keeping power levels sane (for the type of class it is), that a 7.3T can do respectfully (at least enough to come back), why is it so "impossible" for others?

Maybe part of the problem is classes. Workstock was supposed to be as close to pure stock as possible (where allowances were made to keep an even field), 2.5 was the "next step up", and 2.6 was the beginning of the "big leagues" where chances are not everyone could compete. Problem is groups allowed workstock to become something else and it killed 2.5. As workstock and 2.6 grow in HP, the more people get excluded....again it is what it is...I was hoping to try and change it, but it looks like nobody cares.

Many on here say try it once and you're hooked, look at the number of potential pullers you miss out on. I'm not talking just "old trucks", as the entry level class gets higher in HP, the more people feel they don't have a chance and won't even try. Is that what's best for the sport (on a national level)?

We will probably NEVER agree, which is fine, we've all said how we feel. We can keep arguing/explaining till we are blue, but I'ld rather put my energy elsewhere.

Thanks for the feedback.
Chris

I see what your trying to say, but heres the thing. If they like sled pulling, and have enough motivation to stay in it, they wont get mad cause they didnt win, or get in the top 3 their first year. It takes time, you keep saying crap like "you cant see the forrest through the trees" well im sorry, but i was on the other side of the trees just like you, or any person wanting to make that jump. I pulled against 2.8 trucks, with twin cp3s, p pumps, all the big hp guys with my stock turbo duramax. Did i get my ass handed to me? Hell yes! But did i become a big baby and quit? Hell no! I liked the sport enough, i stuck with it, and slowly built up. What makes anyone else different from me? Restricting the hp might help a few guys stay in for a few years, but if they were going to quit cause they werent winning their first year, they werent in for the right reasons anyways, and i could care less. That is a personal problem with motivation, or attention, not a problem classes. Thats the reason this restrictor might be a good thing in workstock, cause if they did not like the sport enough to stay in even though they were not winning, they werent going to make it to 2.6 anyways. Maybe we could call it the "crybaby tube" for those of whom got mad and quit when someone smarter than you built a truck that handed your ass to you.... :thumb:

You cant put a price on making that jump, its just not possible, theres way too many factors. But im by all means NOT rich... just a poor white boy here... maybe i wont compete this year because of it... i can gaurantee you wont see me crying and asking people to restrict their trucks cause im not winning...

On another note i really dont care how many 7.3s there is on the road. That number of other pickups sold should have nothing to do with how the classes are or how people build their trucks. There are tons of Toyotas on the road, but i dont see the gas classes ever restricting them so they have a chance to compete in a bigger class, or any class for that matter.

 

[AdaMax]

""I've found (at least for us), its not an issue for promoters as they like a more diverse show AND more diverse fan base (more money for them). The issue is EVERYBODY pays X dollars for a hook fee and then these guys have to toss in extra money for a chance to win $50 while the guys who paid less get to win a lot more. And with talking to them its more of a pride issue than money issue (i can't say I blame them). Whereas when a club takes them into consideration from the start its a win/win.""



If it is more of a pride thing they can talk to the guy with the p.a. system he could note that the last xx amount of this class are a set of " pure stock " trucks . In all fairness the guys that paid less to win a lot more in my area would only win about $200 and they have A LOT MORE in their trucks .

 

[Leadfoot]

Rhall, all valid points.

And yes the old 6 cylinder toyotas couldn't match the displacement or power of american V8's, but if you look around the country (even on youtube), there are newer "foreign" V8's that are making their way in to pulling (good for them), not a dominate force by any means, but a factory V8 Toyota is producing similar numbers to factory american V8's.

I seen guys try to pull 3000lb 4 cylinder Jeeps just because they love pulling or want to try (no chance in hell of winning). A 2.6 liter motor is not going to compare to a 7.4L BBC.

The powerstrokes had the cubes (unfortunately their injector technology and head design were lacking) although Double Overtime fixed that $$$$$. Old toyotas did not have the displacement, the axles, transfercase, etc. etc., the only thing the 7.3 lacked was air/fuel delivery, the rest of the truck was perfect for pulling. In a true "pure stock" class they faired well. Once workstock/pure stock starting allowing alterations it became a different game (but the old toyotas could NEVER compete with a factory BBC....we've proven that at our pulls with bone stock trucks).

One SIMPLE device might be the only standing in the way of allowing "everyone to compete", why fight it. Hell if I return to pulling I would have to run it and have no problems with it (and I was a dominant competitor as I was usually 1st or 2nd at every pull, and DMax's did well, if I stopped being dominant I would not mind...actually had more fun when competition was close....i guess you could say more exciting). I feel bad for the guys that have small twins and can't pull because it's seen as a huge advantage. It would be nice to be able to have an equalizer and more trucks competing on a similar level. Not everyone can win and actually having more trucks in a class means MORE LOSERS, but keeping motivated when you lose by 10' is alot easier than when you keep getting beat by 100'.....

And I agree with you that a person who "truelly loves pulling" will pull regardless if they get beat by 3' or 300', but it's hard to find more people who love it when you discourage them from trying it in the first place. When I started with the 80 in my sig, I got my AZZ handed to me. I wasn't so much lacking power (the truck was the right platform), I just had no clue what I was doing (suspension, tires, highway gearing, etc. etc.). Once I figured those out I was close with my factory small block 350. Then "our" club, allowed changes that allowed the class to get out of hand (I was part of it as I was a newbie and didn't know better), it took me years to try and reel the class back in......which didn't happen, but I successfully lobbied for a true "stock" beginner class and we got it. My current class (enhanced street) is much like the current 2.6, it was the hot class and is now on the verge of extinction (so I do have valid concerns for the 2.6" class). I guess I don't pull in it and shouldn't care, but I care about the sport and trying to help others learn from past mistakes (some of which were my own).

So I see what you are saying, and understand it.

We can agree to disagree (no hard feelings), just a difference of opinion (and you know what they say about opinions ).

If I make it out your way for a pull (which I would like to), I'll gladly buy you a beer and we can enjoy watching whatever classes are there...

 

[McRat]

In all forms of racing that have engine restrictions, the restrictions get tightened up over time, because technology improves, but the tightening slows down over time.

Turbo diesel pickups are relatively new vehicles in the grand scheme of things, so it's very possible the technology will continue to improve at a rapid pace. Will a 2.6" produce 1000rwhp in the next few years? Perhaps. Regardless of brand or build, 1000rwhp+ is lethal to pickup engines currently on the market. Not instantly, but inevitably.

At some point a decision will have to be made as to what HP level they are trying to limit to, or remove the limits entirely. If they decide to continue with limiting they should use a simple/cheap way to cap the power.

The tube is a good idea, because it's cheap, easy to install and remove, and requires no disassembly to tech. A U-shaped block made from a 2x4 would even work. I think a cap lower than 700rwhp would be better, but for whatever cap they have in mind, it's a far better solution than swapping turbos when adjustments need to be made.

 

[cobb]

At least you guys have something to argue about. Up in the thumb of Mich. the organization thinks that the stock trucks have fun pulling with 2.8 trucks that run over 1,000 hp and won't even consider a ws class. They would rather keep four trucks they have and not let the class grow.

 

[Leadfoot]

At least you guys have something to argue about. Up in the thumb of Mich. the organization thinks that the stock trucks have fun pulling with 2.8 trucks that run over 1,000 hp and won't even consider a ws class. They would rather keep four trucks they have and not let the class grow.

That sucks, I do feel bad for you guys.

The fact that there's arguments though, shows there's passion in the sport (which is good).

I know it's tough, but I would continue to try and lobby your area for a WS class. If a set of rules are drawn up, and there are a decent number of trucks willing to participate with said rules, it will make it easier to "present" that to a board and get buyoff. It make take several attempts, but the more support you can gather (which seems like you should), you will have a better shot at it.

Good Luck.

 

[Rhall]

Rhall, all valid points.

And yes the old 6 cylinder toyotas couldn't match the displacement or power of american V8's, but if you look around the country (even on youtube), there are newer "foreign" V8's that are making their way in to pulling (good for them), not a dominate force by any means, but a factory V8 Toyota is producing similar numbers to factory american V8's.

I seen guys try to pull 3000lb 4 cylinder Jeeps just because they love pulling or want to try (no chance in hell of winning). A 2.6 liter motor is not going to compare to a 7.4L BBC.

The powerstrokes had the cubes (unfortunately their injector technology and head design were lacking) although Double Overtime fixed that $$$$$. Old toyotas did not have the displacement, the axles, transfercase, etc. etc., the only thing the 7.3 lacked was air/fuel delivery, the rest of the truck was perfect for pulling. In a true "pure stock" class they faired well. Once workstock/pure stock starting allowing alterations it became a different game (but the old toyotas could NEVER compete with a factory BBC....we've proven that at our pulls with bone stock trucks).

One SIMPLE device might be the only standing in the way of allowing "everyone to compete", why fight it. Hell if I return to pulling I would have to run it and have no problems with it (and I was a dominant competitor as I was usually 1st or 2nd at every pull, and DMax's did well, if I stopped being dominant I would not mind...actually had more fun when competition was close....i guess you could say more exciting). I feel bad for the guys that have small twins and can't pull because it's seen as a huge advantage. It would be nice to be able to have an equalizer and more trucks competing on a similar level. Not everyone can win and actually having more trucks in a class means MORE LOSERS, but keeping motivated when you lose by 10' is alot easier than when you keep getting beat by 100'.....

And I agree with you that a person who "truelly loves pulling" will pull regardless if they get beat by 3' or 300', but it's hard to find more people who love it when you discourage them from trying it in the first place. When I started with the 80 in my sig, I got my AZZ handed to me. I wasn't so much lacking power (the truck was the right platform), I just had no clue what I was doing (suspension, tires, highway gearing, etc. etc.). Once I figured those out I was close with my factory small block 350. Then "our" club, allowed changes that allowed the class to get out of hand (I was part of it as I was a newbie and didn't know better), it took me years to try and reel the class back in......which didn't happen, but I successfully lobbied for a true "stock" beginner class and we got it. My current class (enhanced street) is much like the current 2.6, it was the hot class and is now on the verge of extinction (so I do have valid concerns for the 2.6" class). I guess I don't pull in it and shouldn't care, but I care about the sport and trying to help others learn from past mistakes (some of which were my own).

So I see what you are saying, and understand it.

We can agree to disagree (no hard feelings), just a difference of opinion (and you know what they say about opinions ).

If I make it out your way for a pull (which I would like to), I'll gladly buy you a beer and we can enjoy watching whatever classes are there...

Understandable, i have no hard feelings either, i see both points, and it would be impossible to make everyone happy.