LML Callies Durastar Crankshaft Issues??

[CRAWLEN]

So, received an email back with some info. And well it's interesting that's for sure.
The taper and surface finish makes sense as to why it would chew out the thrust bearings.

But sounds like they have had some with bad thrust bearings and in correct thrust.

 

[kidturbo]

All sounds reasonable, until that last paragraph.. Unless all these failures have been in LML blocks, I don't see his installation remarks being relevant. If rear cap alignment is that critical, this issue should have shown up on other builds using stock or different cranks by now.

Had a nice chat yesterday with my metallurgy engineer buddy responsible for pieces of alloy a lot more critical than crankshafts. His first thought was surface harness, and process used to heat treat. If induction hardened, it doesn't go very deep. So it's possible the final machining process cut through the surface hardness.

Since the stock cranks break so commonly, one could imagine part of the fix theory could been soften em up in the core. But that's pure speculation. However my buddy did ask what the Rockwell tests revealed...



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[CRAWLEN]

And this is the response I got when I ask if it was a batch issue and incorrect hardness.
Well it appears my crank is fine.


I guess now all I do with my engine builder is check the surface finish and that the surface is flat not on a angle and we should be fine.. fingers crossed.


If it does fail hopefully doesn't causes damage to everything.

 

[CRAWLEN]

The way they are talking about it, feels like they don't want to admit to the public it was a batch issue with some problems. because after she checked my SN it was ok. so leads me to believe they have narrowed the issue down to a batch, the poor surface finish and tapered surface they want me to check could lead to the same issue everyone is having, but then they could of had a batch with a hardness issue they don't want to publicly say.



But who knows I'm just going to send it now, if it fails well i guess its billet mains and a billet crank time, possibly socal stroker :woott:

 

[Evan@InglewoodTrans]

All sounds reasonable, until that last paragraph.. Unless all these failures have been in LML blocks, I don't see his installation remarks being relevant. If rear cap alignment is that critical, this issue should have shown up on other builds using stock or different cranks by now.

Had a nice chat yesterday with my metallurgy engineer buddy responsible for pieces of alloy a lot more critical than crankshafts. His first thought was surface harness, and process used to heat treat. If induction hardened, it doesn't go very deep. So it's possible the final machining process cut through the surface hardness.

Since the stock cranks break so commonly, one could imagine part of the fix theory could been soften em up in the core. But that's pure speculation. However my buddy did ask what the Rockwell tests revealed...



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Your first paragraph is my thoughts exactly. That was a BS comment on his part. We’d of been seeing this for years and years using LML blocks is nothing new.

 

[Ne-max]

With my new engine on gonna keep cutting open my oil filters and check for bearing material. Will probably pull it next winter and inspect. This is definitely going to be on my mind all season even though I was told it should be fine.

 

[Ne-max]

This is getting old quick. What update if nothing's needed?

 

[kidturbo]

Sorta reminds me of my hip Dr telling me the chrome plated steel on steel hardware he installed might need a "revision."

To which I replied "Did you install a USB port in my ass or something, cause only software gets revisions, hardware gets REPLACED."

Is nice to see Wagler stepping up on this one.

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[coker6365]

Not sure if this was posted yet or not...

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[zakkb787]

So, if I’m reading this correctly, they’re blaming it on everything but their cranks itself?

 

[kidturbo]

Ok so I may have something useful to add now besides my typical sarcastic remarks on this one.

Yesterday I hit up Austin at Wagler since they had a few yellow boxes on that pallet of cranks pictured. According to him no reports of failures on the Ultra Billet version. Great new for me at least.

Today I stopped by my buddies garage who's been fighting this issue for years on his BBC pulling truck with heavy clutch pressure plate. On a cart was one his old Lunati cranks pictured below. See the cracked thrust surface.

Contrary to what I posted previous, he had damaged the cranks also with this issue. And had welded them up and resurfaced a couple times. Then started switching out the washers every couple weekends before it damaged the crank. He said the problem actualky got worse when he changed from an OEM to an aftermarket block..

However he just had the engine checked out last week and issue looks to be resolved. Fix, he's now running a thinner thrust bearing, with min of .005 - .006 end play upon assembly. Made it a whole season, play checked out same as where they started.

So,, Callies is likely on the right path here with their reasoning. If the face angle is off, or bearing not perfectly flat, then the oil film could be getting wiped off creating a hot spot edge that gets progressively worse over time till cooks the oil and eats up the whole face. Still their issue, and strange it hadn't shown up before now with any other cranks if that critical.

But all this does make me think more about Stings comments on jacked up pump pressure trying to drive the converter forward during lock up..

Luckily I don't play with things that use clutches or converters... Sorry couldn't help it. lol

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[Evan@InglewoodTrans]

Ok so I may have something useful to add now besides my typical sarcastic remarks on this one.

Yesterday I hit up Austin at Wagler since they had a few yellow boxes on that pallet of cranks pictured. According to him no reports of failures on the Ultra Billet version. Great new for me at least.

Today I stopped by my buddies garage who's been fighting this issue for years on his BBC pulling truck with heavy clutch pressure plate. On a cart was one his old Lunati cranks pictured below. See the cracked thrust surface.

Contrary to what I posted previous, he had damaged the cranks also with this issue. And had welded them up and resurfaced a couple times. Then started switching out the washers every couple weekends before it damaged the crank. He said the problem actualky got worse when he changed from an OEM to an aftermarket block..

However he just had the engine checked out last week and issue looks to be resolved. Fix, he's now running a thinner thrust bearing, with min of .005 - .006 end play upon assembly. Made it a whole season, play checked out same as where they started.

So,, Callies is likely on the right path here with their reasoning. If the face angle is off, or bearing not perfectly flat, then the oil film could be getting wiped off creating a hot spot edge that gets progressively worse over time till cooks the oil and eats up the whole face. Still their issue, and strange it hadn't shown up before now with any other cranks if that critical.

But all this does make me think more about Stings comments on jacked up pump pressure trying to drive the converter forward during lock up..

Luckily I don't play with things that use clutches or converters... Sorry couldn't help it. lol

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Ive done a lot of testing and playing around with pressure in daily drivers that one truck put over 50k miles with confirmed zero knockdown with around 375 PSI of pressure with zero thrust issues. None of the others some with more also have zero issues. More then few race trucks have had zero thrust issues also with “jacked up pressure” Just because some other trans can cause the issue people without an actual clue assume they know that has to be it. It’s not the converter driving forwards during lockup causing these issues. For one we’d of seen it for years as the common built trans pressure hasn’t changed in a very long time and the fact this issues keep happening with one particular crank kind of says it all. They are just playing a well played professional version of pass the buck but I bet suddenly these issues just happen to dissapear.

 

[Mike L.]

I've tested a sled puller for 4 months pushing over 500 psi and never hurt a thing. I expected a wiped out pump at this level, but it was not hurt at all.

 

[gmduramax]

I've tested a sled puller for 4 months pushing over 500 psi and never hurt a thing. I expected a wiped out pump at this level, but it was not hurt at all.

Not sure the psi you set mine up at but I think it was well over 300psi and I have about 70,000 miles since then.

 

[Mike L.]

Not sure the psi you set mine up at but I think it was well over 300psi and I have about 70,000 miles since then.

You're out of warranty Anthony; just sayin.:roflmao::roflmao::hug:

 

[gmduramax]

You're out of warranty Anthony; just sayin.:roflmao::roflmao::hug:

Still shifts great :hug:

 

[kidturbo]

I certainly agree this problem remains with manufacturing. But it does make one think, what the heck is driving these crank fwd hard enough to cause the type a wear seen.. I mean it's riding on oil. Or is designed to be at least. Must be defective blocks...

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[valleyduramax]

So if the cranks are the proper hardness and say the thrust bearings are not, this would also be an issue with factory cranks if there was a bad run if thrust bearings. Except has that happened to any stock cranks over this same time frame? Just curious

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[Bdsankey]

I certainly agree this problem remains with manufacturing. But it does make one think, what the heck is driving these crank fwd hard enough to cause the type a wear seen.. I mean it's riding on oil. Or is designed to be at least. Must be defective blocks...

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The issue isn't blocks, its the cranks. This issue IS NOT happening to any other crank but the Callies Durastar.




They are playing the "blame game" and trying to find someone else to pass the responsibility on to. For example, look at the quality of the thrust surfaces some of these brand new out of the box durastar cranks have, that is not going to last a long life. No matter what shape the thrust bearing is in should it EVER eat the crank away like that. The bearing should always be softer than the crank.




Also, Callies told me via email that only OEM bearings are acceptable. How many of us with built motors have used Mahle/Clevite? I know that is what 99.999% of people recommend on this forum for great results. I know that is what I used and they are holding up great with my stock crank.

 

[Chevy1925]

The issue isn't blocks, its the cranks. This issue IS NOT happening to any other crank but the Callies Durastar.




They are playing the "blame game" and trying to find someone else to pass the responsibility on to. For example, look at the quality of the thrust surfaces some of these brand new out of the box durastar cranks have, that is not going to last a long life. No matter what shape the thrust bearing is in should it EVER eat the crank away like that. The bearing should always be softer than the crank.




Also, Callies told me via email that only OEM bearings are acceptable. How many of us with built motors have used Mahle/Clevite? I know that is what 99.999% of people recommend on this forum for great results. I know that is what I used and they are holding up great with my stock crank.

hes being sarcastic...