Are things ever going to get better?

[Rhall]

You are correct, most companies that are owned by individuals are owned by Republicans. Most of the time the reasons that companies resist Unions is so that they can control who gets hired/fired based on performance. Companies need to adapt to the free market, companies know that not all jobs are equal and should be paid at different rates based on the difficulty or skill sets required. Unions require a one size fits all pay rate, that might seem good in theory but in the real world it does not work.

You also cannot afford to keep paying people who retire a wage/benefit package comparable to what they were earning when they were working, it bankrupts companies and has brought many to their knees.

I don't think we'll ever agree on this one Ryan, you look at it from the UNION side and I look at it from a free market/capitalism side and they just are not ever going to be something that we can agree on.

So I guess we'll have to agree to dis-agree as I see no end in site for this conversation we are having. Hopefully you will someday be a small business owner and then maybe you will have a need to hire workers, then you can truly understand the cost of doing business.

:thumb:

I understand we would never see eye to eye, and i dont expect you to like unions, as a matter of fact you can hate them for all i care, but if your going to say they ruined the country and certain business', your going to half to bring a better argument to the table.:thumb:

 

[GMC_2002_Dmax]

your right! back in the day you would work alot mor than 40hr shifts at straight time. no health benefits. no maternity. just show up as a group and a guy would point and say you could work today. and who needs organized labor? screw the worker! Because that economics major can replace you tomorrow. Hell, it works in china, mexico, and third world countries. so why not practice it here? Are you a business owner? where? cause without all that unneeded overhead, you must be a billionair! And you didnt get my point! your knocking the UAW for making cars exspensive, when the non union "cheap"car costs more.

I see now by re-reading the whole thread that you are an angry laid off Union employee......... I have nothing personal against you, if you were non-union and worked for a smaller company or were self employed you could get your name out easier and might have had more work over the last three years. Sorry to hear that the economy has screwed you over, a good friend of mine is a UNION PIPE FITTER in CT, he has been laid off for 3+ months and told me today another 200 of his buddies in the Local are getting laid off in the next few weeks.

To answer your question I am a small business owner, my father and I have worked together for 23 years in the home building remodeling/general contracting business. We don't hire Union workers, we DO NOT employ Non-Americans, we do hire sub contractors. I am not a billionaire but I do make substantially more per/hour than any Union worker will ever dream of making and I work far less hours a day to make that rate.........:thumb: I also set my own schedule, take time off whenever for whatever reason, I don't need accumulated sick time or a seniority place to get a Holiday off or take a family vacation.

I am living the American Dream, I actually own two different business's, the other is tuning and I do very well with that for a Hobby Business, so maybe someday I'll be a millionaire, a billionaire, nahhhh, I don't want to work that hard I might have to work with Union Employees if my company got that big and I don't need those hassles...:rofl:

I wish you luck in finding a new job, it seems based on your hostility that you are not happy where you are and either want to be part of a Union or if you are want them to call you back to work..........hope it all works out for you.........:hug:

One last thought, you will never get rich working for someone no matter how good you think your pay is, you will always just get a paycheck.



One last thing, you never did answer my question, where does it say in our Constitution that a business or the Government for that matter is required to give anyone anything other that a chance to be whatever they want to be. No company owes any worker anything other than a paycheck, they choose to give benefits out to keep valued employees, but they are not required to do so unless they forced to under a collective bargaining agreement. It's basically shaking down companies to pay or else.

So what say you ???

 

[McRat]

First, we normally resist political threads because they distract from the hotrod thingy, but ...

I've worked Union, (UAW and IAM?) and non-Union.

Today I am an employer (for the last 15 years).

I have no need for Unions or government interference with my business.

My employees get:

Full medical and dental for their families with no contribution
Pension plan
Tuition reimbursement
Travel reimbursement
Free Lunch Friday
Large annual bonus
etc.

Neither the government nor a union makes me do this. I do this because that is the way I'd want to be treated as an employee. In return, I have had excellent employee retention in a sector that is famous for high turnover. My senior guys have over 10 years with me.

The problem is, both the government and unions believe that employers are the "enemy" and need to be punished.

You want me to provide medical for your gay lover? Bite me.
You want to tax me for retirement plans that I already pay for? Bite me.
You want to tax me for medical for non-covered employers? Bite me.

I suppose I should just toe the line and take the opposite battlefront, be "anti-employee", but what I currently do still works well, and makes for a well-managed business. Sure I could boost this years profits by cutting back, but in the long run I'd lose.

 

[Bluemax]

I'm not starting anything here Rob, just got to get it out...

Contrary to what they want people to think JE Dunn does hire non union and don't make them piss in the cup. I've worked for Dunn more than a hand full of times in the last couple of years and was never told to piss. I even asked if I needed to and was told in exact words "no we're not worried about that shit."

I also did some work for Straub and was required to attend a safety meeting with the GC's guy and sign off on all of their safety regs before unloading the first piece of equipment.


But I will absolutely give you that Straub hires some of the most IGNORANT, INCOMPETENT, and just plain STUPID SOBs that ever set foot on a construction site. They hire contractors that call the union hall for laborers because their not allowed to have operators and then throw them into hoes, skid steers, dozers, and whatever else they have on site. The last job we were on for them they called us because their cont. screw up royally and they asked if we'd come clean it up and finish it. The first thing I saw as I pulled up to unload the hoe was a guy running a track hoe loading an end dump while a f***ing idiot was riding on it trying to fuel it up with 5gal cans as he was loading....WTF is that???
I was embarrassed to be on the site for fear of being associated with that outfit. After a couple days of stupid crap like that happening and a few people going to the hospital we pulled all our trucks and equipment off site till they were removed from the property and we could safely work. Last time I'll be on a site with any of their contractors ever again. :thumb:




And for whoever referred to people like me as unorganized labor, getting worked 20hrs a day with no compensation, and no benefits of any kind and that anybody off the street could walk in and replace me tomorrow.... Are you off your freaking rocker? Do you honestly think that's how non union companies are??? Seriously??? I'm non union and and am absolutely positive I'll have a job tomorrow, next week, next year and as long as I choose to work there. And the reason is I've proven my worth many times over by doing just that...my job and I do it well... so HELL NO I don't have to worry about being replaced by some idiot off the street OR because a job across town was finished yesterday and their is now a black guy, mexican, female, or some other member of a minority out of work and they feel they're being discriminated against because I'm working today and they aren't. And I'm quite sure my pay is right up there with any other union operator because I've proven I'm worth the money. I also trust my boss and co workers my life with all kinds of dangerous equipment all day every day and I don't have to hear that they are members of a union to do that. Matter of fact I believe I have a huge advantage there because I don't have to learn the habits different laborers or operators every other day because they find a job closer to home or don't like taking orders from "so and so" the foreman over there. I also like that I don't have to lock my truck and take my keys when I get to the shop and park in the morning.

We are equipped with more than enough safety gear for any site we've ever been on. My boss makes absolutely sure of that before we set foot on site.
I love my job and couldn't pick a better group of people to work with, and I say "with" because my boss tells people I don't work FOR him, I work WITH him because he doesn't even have to be there when I do a job. and respect like that keeps me a loyal employee to him and him alone.
I have called him before and told him I couldn't make it to work today because I had sand in my vagina....After he stopped chocking and laughing at me and pulling back onto the road he said ok guess I'll see you tomorrow if you get that taken care of....

Tell me how the operators union could do me any better than any of that?


I don't dog you guys or anyone else for being in a union until being provoked by an off the wall comment like that, so why don't you guys have the common courtesy to do the same for me while I choose to be non union?[/QUOTE]


Read back a few pages, and see who provoked who, then youll get your answer.

Yes, Je does hire some non-union contractors, but all of there jobs are still mostly union, the only way you walked on to a Je Dunn Job without pissing, is if the safety person didnt know you were there. Im on a Je Dunn job now, and i had to go to another job for a half a day because when the medical office was behind and took a few hours to send my paper work. They wouldnt even let me walk on till it was recieved.

I dont have a problem with non-union workers, seems you just came in on the last couple pages. It was stated that Unions were killing this country, so non union arguments were brought into the conversation. As for being unorganized labor, thats a term, doesnt mean your company is "unorganized" or anything.

As for non-union companys working their hours on end for pennies, that doesnt mean thats what your getting paid now. Unions set the standard back in the day, created the weekend, and created overtime. Before Unions, all work was different, and even non union employees has benifit from the Unions. If the standard wage was 10bucks an hour for an operator, do you think your boss would still pay you what he does? If he didnt give you insurance, would you still work for him? In sence im saying a higher standard helps everyone out.

Sorry if you took offence Kevin, nobody on here was saying those things, if i came out and said non-union companys are ruining this country, im sure you would consider that prevoked, if you read the whole thing, i think you will understand.:thumb:

I understand Rob I'm not taking offense at all. Only the first part of my post was meant for you though. The rest of it was meant for the guy a post or two before you that said that unions were the only organized way to have labor... I've got no problem with a pro union guy, I've got lots of friends that are including you. I just don't take kindly to people trying to hold themselves on a pedestal above me because I choose not to be.
On that note I went back and figured out that I was on Dunn's sites 8 times in the last 2 years and the shortest time was over a week and got paid every time so if they didn't know I was there along with three end dumps for weeks at a time I think they have some bigger problems.

I do think the union was a good thing back in the day when it was started by the workers for the workers, but I don't think they are anymore. They are now nothing more than a business just like anything else. I believe they are only help the workers to help themselves so I choose to do my own thing nothing more nothing less.

When I started working for Kyle I had no insurance, no benefits, and no set pay. I was laid off very early in this recession because as always the toys are the first things to go so work got scarce fast. He helped me out by putting me in equipment around the farm and doing odd things. I worked very hard and went up from there because he helped me out when he wasn't being overrun with work himself. I worked anytime I had something to do be it weekends, nights, holidays or whatever. I did that by MY decision not his and he has made me leave a few times without really asking. That is how I got to where I am now being able to call and say I'm going on a riding trip next week and hearing simply ok have fun and be careful, need me to run to your house and take care of anything while you're gone. (45mi. each direction by the way) Like I said before he stuck his neck way out when he didn't have to and that kind of stuff is not forgotten. So I was there when their were no benefits at all and some long hours that I didn't always like but it was a pay check. I proved my worth and the rest speaks for itself.
I'm still there with or without the benefits because he stepped up to take a little less money home to help someone out that he didn't even know.

I also do agree that labor unions are the reason that the pay scale has went up like it has which sounds good...That being said that's also why a truck costs over 50k when ten years ago it cost 30k or less. I don't see how raising the workers pay has helped anything because. Your pay goes up, but so does the price of anything the labor union has it's nose in. Groceries, fuel, vehicles, parts and whatever else because someone has to take the hit for it. Who does? In the end it's still you and me. The extra cost of making the stuff just gets passed on to the end buyer because no one from GM all the way down to the dealer is willing to take less money for doing the same thing just like you and me. When does it stop though? People can't just keep raising prices and pay every year without something happening just like it has.

Like I said I have no problem with you or anyone one else but his remark was intended to be a stab at ALL non union employees not just the one that got under his skin and yes that got on my nerves but I'm not going to go back and read the whole thread because it get people nowhere. Arguing about this stuff doesn't fix it, getting out and working keeps my mind where it needs to be.... On finding new jobs and making money at a time when it's hard to do and many others including some in the unions are not so lucky.

 

[403turbo]

I used to be the Environmental/safety manager at a large union plant. Steelworkers.....some of the finest people I probably will ever have the privilege to work with.....most of them. Most of them had pride in a job well done, were true tradesmen, they could do stuff with a welder and lathe that I can't even dream about. They were the best at what they did and were paid accordingly. Most of them made far more than I did.

Then there were the other guys, the lowest common denominators (LCD's). These guys were the ones that carried the contract booklet around and knew every line, every loop hole, every trick to do less and get paid more. They knew how many times they could get written up before getting canned, and they knew all the tricks to milk workers comp and disability. I had guys that got hurt every year just before hunting or fishing season. Just the sleaziest stuff you can think of, their co-workers knew it was BS and "off the record" they would tell me. In the days before OSHA and the DOL Unions protected workers. Now Unions are unwilling givers of labor welfare. They take care of the LCD's not because they want to but because they are legally required to represent their members.

Most Union members are good people that truly don't need a union. They are valuable professionals that would command high pay based on merit not extortion.

Here is the bottom line, the point of business is to make money, people are expensive no matter what,(single worst investment a business can make) but unions make them more expensive. With the world getting smaller and other countries getting modern, manufacturing unions have lost their leverage. Won't contribute to health insurance? Fine we're moving production to Mexico! or China....I watched it happen right in front of me.

Then the youngest, or the ones with the least time lost a job, not the lazy complacent guy with 30 years that was doing the negotiating.

I'll stand on my own two feet and keep my job based on MY work thank you.

I own a business now, That's EXACTLY what I do everyday.

 

[Rhall]

I also beleive not all companies have to be Union to treat their employees right. Some do on their own, and theres some that take advantage of not having to treat them good. I have no problem with anyones choice whether it be Union or Non Union, i worked for a non-union excavating company right out of high school, and i really dont get in political arguments much, because they go no where. But when someones making poor accusations because its there opinion, and its false, then im gonna take a stand, but try not to offend anybody along the way.

 

[Rhall]

I used to be the Environmental/safety manager at a large union plant. Steelworkers.....some of the finest people I probably will ever have the privilege to work with.....most of them. Most of them had pride in a job well done, were true tradesmen, they could do stuff with a welder and lathe that I can't even dream about. They were the best at what they did and were paid accordingly. Most of them made far more than I did.

Then there were the other guys, the lowest common denominators (LCD's). These guys were the ones that carried the contract booklet around and knew every line, every loop hole, every trick to do less and get paid more. They knew how many times they could get written up before getting canned, and they knew all the tricks to milk workers comp and disability. I had guys that got hurt every year just before hunting or fishing season. Just the sleaziest stuff you can think of, their co-workers knew it was BS and "off the record" they would tell me. In the days before OSHA and the DOL Unions protected workers. Now Unions are unwilling givers of labor welfare. They take care of the LCD's not because they want to but because they are legally required to represent their members.
Most Union members are good people that truly don't need a union. They are valuable professionals that would command high pay based on merit not extortion.

Here is the bottom line, the point of business is to make money, people are expensive no matter what,(single worst investment a business can make) but unions make them more expensive. With the world getting smaller and other countries getting modern, manufacturing unions have lost their leverage. Won't contribute to health insurance? Fine we're moving production to Mexico! or China....I watched it happen right in front of me.

Then the youngest, or the ones with the least time lost a job, not the lazy complacent guy with 30 years that was doing the negotiating.

I'll stand on my own two feet and keep my job based on MY work thank you.

I own a business now, That's EXACTLY what I do everyday.

As far as the statement in red, i dont think that applies in the construction industry. As for are trade anyhow, there is no seniority, u fail a drug test, your on your own, and you dont show up to work, u get fired. The companies can also lay you off for lack of performance. There is no protection for the LCDs as your call it I think most construction trade Unions are the same anymore. The LCDs are the sames ones you see on the bench year after year, and eventually find their way out. I do agree 100% that you should keep your job based on performance, and not seniority.

 

[Rhall]

I also do agree that labor unions are the reason that the pay scale has went up like it has which sounds good...That being said that's also why a truck costs over 50k when ten years ago it cost 30k or less. I don't see how raising the workers pay has helped anything because. Your pay goes up, but so does the price of anything the labor union has it's nose in. Groceries, fuel, vehicles, parts and whatever else because someone has to take the hit for it. Who does? In the end it's still you and me. The extra cost of making the stuff just gets passed on to the end buyer because no one from GM all the way down to the dealer is willing to take less money for doing the same thing just like you and me. When does it stop though? People can't just keep raising prices and pay every year without something happening just like it has.

This is true, but i dont think it can be blamed on Unions completely. Gas price has tripled in the last 10 years, food prices have easily doubled, import car prices have doubled, the price of almost everything goes up every year, Union or Non Union. I agree 100% the government, and USA is messed up right now, but to find an easy scape goat like unions because their wages are higher than someone else thinks they should be, thats bs. I can name 10 occupations off the top of my head, that in my opinion are way over paid, and its only cause they have a sheet of paper thats called a degree, but do i think they are ruining the country? No.

 

[GMC_2002_Dmax]

This is true, but i dont think it can be blamed on Unions completely. Gas price has tripled in the last 10 years, food prices have easily doubled, import car prices have doubled, the price of almost everything goes up every year, Union or Non Union. I agree 100% the government, and USA is messed up right now, but to find an easy scape goat like unions because their wages are higher than someone else thinks they should be, thats bs. I can name 10 occupations off the top of my head, that in my opinion are way over paid, and its only cause they have a sheet of paper thats called a degree, but do i think they are ruining the country? No.

That reason is a whole different problem, and it ain't the Unions fault. It is Congress and their spending.

When you have a paper money system and the ability to print money you devalue the currency, it is no longer backed by gold or silver as it was in the early part of the 1900's.

The Federal Reserve is the game changer on that one, they control interest rates, money supply and pretty much do whatever they want.

They are an independent central bank, lots of good reading on those guys.........

 

[403turbo]

Yeah, Unions are not the cause of the problems, they do a wonderful job representing their members but they also need to realize that the world changed around them. If Union X was training it's members to be better whatevers...autoworkers, machinist, steel workers etc..and policing the bad behavior of LCD's..then that is a great Union and probably a national asset.....seriously. They provide a skilled, professional no-BS work force that is honestly worth a high price and allows this nation to compete on the global stage.

The Unions I have dealt with did not do this. They operated like the company had no other choice and they were wrong. Consequently a lot of hard working, low seniority, good guys that had little pull within the Union got the ax, and a new plant was built in Guandong (sp) province. Those jobs never come back and in rural areas you go from $25/hr machinist to $8/hr burger flipper.

In Unions I have dealt with a member can bring a charge to the labor board against union leadership for inadequate representation ........and win.

 

[Josh2002cc]

What percentage of the American work force is union vs non union? I keep hearing about all the skilled workers within a union but I am failing to grasp how many non union inferior workers there are roaming a job site near you?

 

[tinman22]

I think the percentage is now something like 15 to 20 % union the rest non. of course that varys by area. I think Philadelphia is 95 % union. only a handful of shops still run non union there. and the one big sheetmetal shop thats non union down there does the right thing as far as wages go. such as when they are on a prevailing wage job they pay the prper rate. alot of places will charge the full prevailing price then jip their employees out of their wages. some places will go as far as to pay the guys the correct wages so it shows up on the certified payroll and then make them pay back the difference after they get their check.

 

[GMC_2002_Dmax]

What percentage of the American work force is union vs non union? I keep hearing about all the skilled workers within a union but I am failing to grasp how many non union inferior workers there are roaming a job site near you?

Last statistic I heard was 12%, most of them Government Workers, we all know how they are to deal with.......:rofl:

If you want to know how most Unions operate you will have two different opinions., Union Workers think that management sucks, the company is screwing them left and right and $60+/hour with benefits is not enough money and so on and so on.........

If you ask a Non-Union worker who is working next to a Union Worker you would think that a Non-Union Worker is worse than a second class citizen, Union Guys usually carry a big chip on their shoulders for some reason, maybe the fact that it is dam near impossible to fire them might be part of it. Slow Downs, Sit Downs, Your Going to Fast, Making Us Look Bad, I have heard it all........I avoid Union Jobs if possible because I don't need to listen to all the whining at the job and worry about the sabotage that goes with being a Non-Union Worker on a Union Job.

If you ain't Union you ain't shit is their motto...........:rofl:

The skilled workers are in Unions and those that are Non-Union. If you had two jobs running, a private one and a Union one I would bet the Union job takes longer, costs more and has more problems that the Non-Union shops.

:hug:

 

[tinman22]

as a union worker... I do have to agree with tony that most union workers carry the chip on their shoulder that they are better than the non union worker. the unions are only worried about lining their pockets and most employees are brainwashed into thinking the contractor is scum and we must screw them over any way possible to keep THEM from making money. I have no love for my union hall I use them for the benifits that the collective bargaining agreement gets me and thats about it. fortuantely for me I come from a family business ( not related to the work I do now) and I have better work ethics than most in my hall. my thinking is... the more money I make my employer the more money he will make for me. I have a good repor with my boss and he values my skills and treats me very well. I usually work 50 to 51 weeks out of the year wage wise. what I lose in time off I make up in OT.

 

[silvrmax04]

The skilled workers are in Unions and those that are Non-Union. If you had two jobs running, a private one and a Union one I would bet the Union job takes longer, costs more and has more problems that the Non-Union shops.

I would bet the union job is of far better quality and craftsmenship.

 

[WolfLMM]

The skilled workers are in Unions and those that are Non-Union. If you had two jobs running, a private one and a Union one I would bet the Union job takes longer, costs more and has more problems that the Non-Union shops.

I would bet the union job is of far better quality and craftsmenship.

Really? Is that why the current manufacturing trend is moving to the South? Not much union influence down here, quality is very high.

Most of our customers are from the North and Far West, all have told us that quality work and craftsmanship from northern (union) manufactures has fallen off.

I'm not stabbing at all union members, I know there are good ones out there. Again I am not stabbing at anyone, but I have to go by what my customers tell me...

 

[silvrmax04]

the manufacturing goes south and overseas because labor is cheaper. Most union guys dont like non union because they feel they are taking their work for lower wages that have not been negotiated.

 

[Randy5.0]

Last statistic I heard was 12%, most of them Government Workers, we all know how they are to deal with.......:rofl:

If you want to know how most Unions operate you will have two different opinions., Union Workers think that management sucks, the company is screwing them left and right and $60+/hour with benefits is not enough money and so on and so on.........

If you ask a Non-Union worker who is working next to a Union Worker you would think that a Non-Union Worker is worse than a second class citizen, Union Guys usually carry a big chip on their shoulders for some reason, maybe the fact that it is dam near impossible to fire them might be part of it. Slow Downs, Sit Downs, Your Going to Fast, Making Us Look Bad, I have heard it all........I avoid Union Jobs if possible because I don't need to listen to all the whining at the job and worry about the sabotage that goes with being a Non-Union Worker on a Union Job.

If you ain't Union you ain't shit is their motto...........:rofl:

The skilled workers are in Unions and those that are Non-Union. If you had two jobs running, a private one and a Union one I would bet the Union job takes longer, costs more and has more problems that the Non-Union shops.

:hug:

Tony, you are full of $hit. You don't have any first hand knowlege of working with a union at all. If you did, you would know Sit downs and Slow downs are not allowed by unions and if union members did try a work stoppage of any kind they would be punished for it by the union itself. That is A FACT. The only thing that is true in your statements is that you have heard it all....... as in, you have heard negative things about unions and you're regurgitating it on the forums like its absolute fact, backing it up with generalities. Whatever. I could say the same thing about residential home builders. They are the most unloyal, cuthroat, people there are, and they would drop a subcontractor over pennies on a contract even if they did great work. Is that true? I don't know, maybe. As far as having a chip on my shoulder, maybe, I know that we are held to a higher standard in workmanship and safety. I know that the state lowered the testing standards by 100 questions and 4 hours and made it all open book so the non-union guys could get a license. I know that we had to go finish the Wal-Mart store because the non-union guys screwed it up, and we had to finish the state prison because the non- union guys screwed it up. Does that mean I think all non-union is bad, absolutely not, hell I've got really good friends that work non-union and they even say they make the good wages they do because of the union.
Do everybody a favor and talk about something you do know about, like tuning Duramax pickups.

 

[WolfLMM]

the manufacturing goes south and overseas because labor is cheaper. Most union guys dont like non union because they feel they are taking their work for lower wages that have not been negotiated.

I don't think sooooo.

 

[Vrabel]

Not quite there skid plate