So, Why Oval?

Hot COCOAL

May the farce be with you
Jun 9, 2012
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Thanks Jon

This might help some of you, smarter than me, people
Lol

(Resource: Wikipedia online)

Example of adiabatic compression
The compression stroke in a gasoline engine can be used as an example of adiabatic compression. The simplifying assumptions are: the uncompressed volume of the cylinder is 1000 cm3 (one litre); the gas within is nearly pure nitrogen (thus a diatomic gas with five degrees of freedom and so \gamma = 7/5); the compression ratio of the engine is 10:1 (that is, the 1000 cm3 volume of uncompressed gas be reduced to 100 cm3 by the piston); and that the uncompressed gas is at approximately room temperature and pressure (a warm room temperature of ~27 °C or 300 K, and a pressure of 1 bar ~ 100 kPa, or about 14.7 PSI, i.e. typical sea-level atmospheric pressure).

P V^{\gamma} = \operatorname{constant} = 100,000 \operatorname{pa} \times 1000^{7/5} = 100 \times 10^3 \times 15.8 \times 10^3 = 1.58 \times 10^9

so our adiabatic constant for this example is about 1.58 billion.

The gas is now compressed to a 100 cm3 volume (we will assume this happens quickly enough that no heat can enter or leave the gas). The new volume is 100 cm3, but the constant for this experiment is still 1.58 billion:

P V^{\gamma} = \operatorname{constant} = 1.58 \times 10^9 = P \times 100^{7/5}

so solving for P:

P = 1.58 \times 10^9 / {100^{7/5}} = 1.58 \times 10^9 / 630.9 = 2.50 \times 10^6 \operatorname{ Pa}

or about 362 PSI or 24.5 atm. Note that this pressure increase is more than a simple 10:1 compression ratio would indicate; this is because the gas is not only compressed, but the work done to compress the gas also increases its internal energy which manifests itself by a rise in the gas's temperature and an additional rise in pressure above what would result from a simplistic calculation of 10 times the original pressure.

We can solve for the temperature of the compressed gas in the engine cylinder as well, using the ideal gas law, PV=RT (R the specific gas constant for that gas). Our initial conditions are 100,000 pa of pressure, 1000 cm3 volume, and 300 K of temperature, so our experimental constant is:

{P V \over T} =\operatorname {constant} = {{10^5 \times 10^3 } \over {300} } = 3.33 \times 10^5

We know the compressed gas has V = 100 cm3 and P = 2.50E6 pascals, so we can solve for temperature by simple algebra:

{P V \over {\operatorname{constant}}} = T = {{2.50 \times 10^6 \times 100} \over {3.33 \times 10^5}} = 751

That is a final temperature of 751 K, or 477 °C, or 892 °F, well above the ignition point of many fuels. This is why a high compression engine requires fuels specially formulated to not self-ignite (which would cause engine knocking when operated under these conditions of temperature and pressure), or that a supercharger with an intercooler to provide a pressure boost but with a lower temperature rise would be advantageous. A diesel engine operates under even more extreme conditions, with compression ratios of 20:1 or more being typical, in order to provide a very high gas temperature which ensures immediate ignition of the injected fuel.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process
 

Fingers

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However, to say that pressurizing the air creates heat is not technically correct. Heat is energy. The law of conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. With this, energy is only transferred or converted. Yes, the temperature does rise when you compress a fluid, but that energy has to come from somewhere.


The act of compressing the gas requires work. Work is energy and is what adds the addition temperature and pressure over PV=NRT. Basic, basic thermodynamics/physics.
 

malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
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WTH?
Is Jon's recommendation of .070" ONLY for the ovals then?

You asked what stock quench was. Or at least that's what I understood you to be asking..

Avg stock protrusion is ~.015"
Majority of the engines come with grade B gaskets..
Subtract the two numbers and that's your quench

As for me I'm running .030-.035" quench with ovals I know couple guys are running little tighter
 

Hot COCOAL

May the farce be with you
Jun 9, 2012
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The act of compressing the gas requires work. Work is energy and is what adds the addition temperature and pressure over PV=NRT. Basic, basic thermodynamics/physics.
Jon, your "basic" and my "basic" are fundamentally different things, brother!
:roflmao:
yeh, BASIC physics....:rolleyes:

You asked what stock quench was. Or at least that's what I understood you to be asking..

Avg stock protrusion is ~.015"
Majority of the engines come with grade B gaskets..
Subtract the two numbers and that's your quench

As for me I'm running .030-.035" quench with ovals I know couple guys are running little tighter
yes, I was specifically asking about stock quench in order to compare between Jon's spec and stock, I expected the quench of the two to be closer in tolerance...I guess.

Not to intentionally bring up a potentially touchy subject, but, didn't you have a couple issues with your first engine that had ovals? I know you ran a higher CR than normal for an aftermarket piston, but what was the quench spec on that build?
 

Hot COCOAL

May the farce be with you
Jun 9, 2012
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To answer the last two posts at the same time:

Diesel will not burn below about 400° F. Compressing the air charge raises the air temp above that in a diesel engine, but there is a lot of that heat lost through contact with the piston, head and cylinder walls. In the quench areas, there is enough metal contact to wick away enough heat to drop the local air temp below the ignition point of the diesel. In effect, quenching the fire. It ends up being a ratio between the mass of the air and the surface area surrounding it.

This effect seems to come on strong when the air gap gets to about 0.070" or smaller.

So, what I am saying is either keep the gap in excess of 0.070" or make it as small as possible.

That is, keep your valve reliefs 0.070" or deeper and your head to piston clearances tight
.

I am NOT recommending 0.070" quench. I do not say that anywhere in my posts.

Jeeesh
I'm sorry Jon, no disrespect sir, I'm sure I took the above reference out of context :angel:

:baby:
 

S Phinney

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What the heck are you talking about?
I was speaking of your post that you stated to keep gap in excess of .070 or it began to put out the fire. With gasket dimensions and petrusion of the pistons those number are not what builders do or the factory. Stock motors run near the .020 quench and most performance engines run around .030 quench. Most people probably would have misinterpreted those numbers. I was trying to get you to answer it more clearly than step on yours toes or offend you in anyway.

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TheBac

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I was speaking of your post that you stated a minimum gap of .070 or it began to put out the fire. With gasket dimensions and petrusion of the pistons those number are not what builders do or the factory. Stock motors run near the .020 quench and most performance engines run around .030 quench. Most people probably would have misinterpreted those numbers. I was trying to get you to answer it more clearly than step on yours toes or offend you in anyway.

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So substitute "maximum" for "minimum" and it reads right, right?

Ford 2V Cleveland heads used to have issues with this. Same with Olds. The old open chamber vs closed chamber head comparison.
 

S Phinney

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Maybe a maximum of .070. I'm not certain on that but i would never run that much quench. If you have valve reliefs which I personally would always do there isn't any difference on quench. Just don't get too close as to hit the head. Those numbers of .030 on a performance engine is getting you pretty close depending on how hard you run it. I'm at about .028 on my triple truck and capable of 1300 to 1500 hp on fuel. My intent was for people to understand correctly what is proper.

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TheBac

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Understood, Shane. Funny how some of these topics we talk about here about Dmaxes brings me back to my old gas engine days.
What was old is new again, just with different fuel.
 

malibu795

misspeelleerr
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yes, I was specifically asking about stock quench in order to compare between Jon's spec and stock, I expected the quench of the two to be closer in tolerance...I guess.

Not to intentionally bring up a potentially touchy subject, but, didn't you have a couple issues with your first engine that had ovals? I know you ran a higher CR than normal for an aftermarket piston, but what was the quench spec on that build?

That engine had a lot of hands in the machine work... That machjne shop couldnt handle induction harden cylinders walls had to farm that work out.
Which lead too IMO the piston to wall clearance got to big.. Which in turn lead to big ring gaps and alot a of blow by especially under heavy loads

And the piston crown was flush with the deck. I actually swapped C gaskets for As to tighten up quench.
 

S Phinney

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Understood, Shane. Funny how some of these topics we talk about here about Dmaxes brings me back to my old gas engine days.
What was old is new again, just with different fuel.
The mechanical aspects don't differ by drastic amounts. The engine itself doesn't know which fuel it's running.

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Chevy1925

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I think you guys are reading jons posts wrong about quench

Jon is saying that under .070 between piston and head at tdc, quenching happens outside the bowls as there is not enough space for flame nor is there enough heat.

He then is saying if you want a flame to happen outside the bowl onto the edges of the piston when ignited, you need a gap between head and piston greater then .070.

To add to that, he states that if you run valve reliefs, do not run them shallower than .070 in the piston so you can achieve a flame into the reliefs and use all this space of the piston. So if your cam only called for .050 reliefs, go .070 or more so you maximize the flame on the piston.

He still very much recommends running a tight piston to head clearance if you are under .070 when setting up the motor.


My question is, would there be anything to gain by running a piston to head clearance greater than .070 and getting a flame front in those "what use to be" tight areas
 

Hot COCOAL

May the farce be with you
Jun 9, 2012
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thank you James, that helped
:hug:

I got a question for your question...if your run an excess of .070" quench, is the piston cut for that premise, or would you want to run a higher CR....how does/would that work?

I'm really curious about this whole quench thing because I'm wondering how much the quench might affect:
a) heat retention in the piston top
b) overall efficiency (promoting swirl, turbulence, combustion)

quench was a big deal to the guy I was gonna have build my LS, and I rarely see it discussed here...

I'd really be interested if anyone had some sort of back to back experience with setting up Dmax builds with different quench specs...it seems to me like this is something that gets overlooked as independently crucial to each build and accepted as a standard, when (possibly?) it could play a more significant role?
 

S Phinney

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I think you guys are reading jons posts wrong about quench

Jon is saying that under .070 between piston and head at tdc, quenching happens outside the bowls as there is not enough space for flame nor is there enough heat.

He then is saying if you want a flame to happen outside the bowl onto the edges of the piston when ignited, you need a gap between head and piston greater then .070.

To add to that, he states that if you run valve reliefs, do not run them shallower than .070 in the piston so you can achieve a flame into the reliefs and use all this space of the piston. So if your cam only called for .050 reliefs, go .070 or more so you maximize the flame on the piston.

He still very much recommends running a tight piston to head clearance if you are under .070 when setting up the motor.


My question is, would there be anything to gain by running a piston to head clearance greater than .070 and getting a flame front in those "what use to be" tight areas
I do understand what he said and no there would not be any benefit of that much clearance for a quench. It would create big problems for you.

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Stancedlb7

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With such a big quench gap I'd imagine the stroker kit and a big bore would help to maximize compression. Is this the reason why sled pulleys use such low compression ratios?
 

S Phinney

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With such a big quench gap I'd imagine the stroker kit and a big bore would help to maximize compression. Is this the reason why sled pulleys use such low compression ratios?
Compression number is set from bowl volume and compression height.

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