Twins with Twins, Anyone?

[THEFERMANATOR]

Thats the nice part about marine use, you have nearly unlimited cooling at your disposal, just get a bigger pump, and use more of it. The only real hurdle is setting it up so that the coolers are efficient enough without adding tremendous weight(copper/brass coolers are HEAVY, but aluminum does not hold up for long in a salt water enviroment).

 

[LBZ]

Are you planning to run an lbz harness and ecm with the lmm heads? IIRC the zf6 manual trans wasn't offered after the lbz engine was discontinued and I'm not sure what hurdles you would have to jump to make an lmm work without an allison trans. Would be easier with an lbz running a zf6 tune. Also fewer bugs with the turbo tuning.

A good turbo pair IMO would be a Danville stg2r with a BW S483. I'd be worried that the twin 464's may be a little laggy. I ran one as a single and I got it dialled in pretty good but it's still a fixed geometry and without high drive pressures and egt's it wasn't as nice as a variable vane. Just thinking about the on/off throttle your customer may encounter at 100+ mph.

Also I feel you definitely will have the water cooling, but I would look into adding oil capacity. That kind of hp and duty cycle your looking at is going to be hard on oil. A little extra might not be a bad idea.

 

[NC-smokinlmm]

We had a Hustler 388 Slingshot with twin 555 big blocks with m-4 pro chargers running roughly 10lbs of boost at 1,200hp a piece, that were 50% water 50% meth injected at 7lbs of boost or so. You could run 10-15 minutes wide open and when you opened the hatch the intake charge pipe would have a thick layer of ice on it. The pro charger itself would be so hot you couldn't get near it. I don't have any experience with water meth on a diesel but it worked wonders on those motors... It made the motors much safer to run with added timing also! We had a 7 gallon tank for it and you would be surprised how long it would last.

Ice on it??? Surely you jest...

 

[MAXX IT OUT]

Ice on it??? Surely you jest...

I am going to guess these were carbureted. The boost hats for carburetor will create a pressure drop, enough to make around a 100 degree temp different in the intake air temp, depending on how big the hat is.

 

[04LB7yz]

Yes exactly, they were carburated with carb hats. 4inch tubing with good sized 4inch in 4 inch out water to air intercoolers.

 

[kidturbo]

Are you planning to run an lbz harness and ecm with the lmm heads? IIRC the zf6 manual trans wasn't offered after the lbz engine was discontinued and I'm not sure what hurdles you would have to jump to make an lmm work without an allison trans. Would be easier with an lbz running a zf6 tune. Also fewer bugs with the turbo tuning.

LMM harness and ECM since I designed a NMEA gateway based off that setup.
http://www.duramaxdiesels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68389

Still trying decide about using a MAF with the twin symmetrical turbo's. I like the cleaner exhaust at lower RPM the MAF allows, but would either have to run them into a single intake tube or run twin MAF's and build a splitter box to calculate total air flow.

On transmission, the Allison is overkill in a boat. 2-3 and 6th are not used on my buddies. It shifts 1,2,3,4 is under a second, then hunts between 4-5 most of the time and slips in 6th which limps a stage 5 build.... So that's locked out. The two speeds like the COAN are electronically shifted by a button on the dash. One click and both shift from low to high gear, then hold wherever you put them till you push the button again. That's about all you need in a boat is one gear to get on plain and light the turbos, then shift into high and stay there till you come to a stop.

For cooling, the Banks intakes use a cupronickel core that salt water doesn't effect like aluminum. Main difference is the heat transfer rate is better on copper. I would still use aluminum if had too and just flush them out with salt away when done boating. The oil coolers are massive and have a copper core, along with engine heat exchangers. Getting enough water pumping to cool all that is the issue.

Exhaust is all 316 stainless steel tube in tube. Below is set I built for the 6spd boat this spring. Will use similar design with different up pipes to T4 flanges. Likely use divided scroll housing turbos with spool valves to help get them spinning.

 

[IOWA LLY]

Why do the exhaust manifolds in boats have to be liquid cooled? I've never understood this....

Why can't they just just be wrapped or surrounded by good heat shields?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[A. Stock Lbz]

I am going to guess these were carbureted. The boost hats for carburetor will create a pressure drop, enough to make around a 100 degree temp different in the intake air temp, depending on how big the hat is.

Close but not exactly. The air get cooled going thru the carb by the fuel. If your fuel is hot it only drops a little to none at all. The hats have no pressure drop when they are pressurized.

 

[Awenta]

Why do the exhaust manifolds in boats have to be liquid cooled? I've never understood this....

Why can't they just just be wrapped or surrounded by good heat shields?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I imagine it will keep everything cooler. They are in an enclosed space with no air or anything else for cooling. They would probably heat soak super fast. Plus with all that cooling available I say cool everything as much as possible.

Correct me if I'm off base here

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Awenta]

cumberland poker run... as in Lake Cumberland in KY???


Are there any billet blocks available so they might be repairable/salvageable if/when engine internals let go?


Given the short time period to achieve this... I imagine you have a game plan in place for the engines by now... So whats the plan?!?! :woott:

Wagler has billet blocks. Can't get anything from them very quickly though.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[kidturbo]

Why do the exhaust manifolds in boats have to be liquid cooled? I've never understood this....

Why can't they just just be wrapped or surrounded by good heat shields?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

One word: Insurance.

USCG says no surface can exceeded like 180f or somewhere around there. My other boat had wrapped manifolds and up pipes and worked fine. But the cleaner way is water cooled stainless. If you have a fire and it was found to be caused by say fuel leaking onto a hot manifold, your gonna be SOL...

 

[kidturbo]

Wagler has billet blocks. Can't get anything from them very quickly though.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

This build already jumped 20 with change to billet cranks, Banks intakes, and Nelson Racing symmetrical turbos. Add those custom trannies, and 2 WMD surface drives on top of that figure, your taking two new LTZ's fresh off the lot.

Look closely at those engines he built for the other Dmax boat project, they're cast and pushing way more then I'm interested in. My goal is proof of concept with reasonable power and cost. Average day it will be happy 500hp cruising, but if you need it, turn the knob and lite em up...

:beavisnbutthead:

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

LMM harness and ECM since I designed a NMEA gateway based off that setup.
http://www.duramaxdiesels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68389

Still trying decide about using a MAF with the twin symmetrical turbo's. I like the cleaner exhaust at lower RPM the MAF allows, but would either have to run them into a single intake tube or run twin MAF's and build a splitter box to calculate total air flow.

On transmission, the Allison is overkill in a boat. 2-3 and 6th are not used on my buddies. It shifts 1,2,3,4 is under a second, then hunts between 4-5 most of the time and slips in 6th which limps a stage 5 build.... So that's locked out. The two speeds like the COAN are electronically shifted by a button on the dash. One click and both shift from low to high gear, then hold wherever you put them till you push the button again. That's about all you need in a boat is one gear to get on plain and light the turbos, then shift into high and stay there till you come to a stop.

For cooling, the Banks intakes use a cupronickel core that salt water doesn't effect like aluminum. Main difference is the heat transfer rate is better on copper. I would still use aluminum if had too and just flush them out with salt away when done boating. The oil coolers are massive and have a copper core, along with engine heat exchangers. Getting enough water pumping to cool all that is the issue.

Exhaust is all 316 stainless steel tube in tube. Below is set I built for the 6spd boat this spring. Will use similar design with different up pipes to T4 flanges. Likely use divided scroll housing turbos with spool valves to help get them spinning.

Have you worked out a custom tune file yet? The LMM ECM will not work with a truck tune in a stand-alone application WITHOUT the ALLISON TCM present. There is no manual trans calibration presently available to the general public for an LMM(but I THINK PPEI has built one before, he posted a screen shot before of one). Would hate to see you do all this work, and not be able to get it over 2,000 RPM's. And if it was mine, there is nO WAY IN HE!! I would run LMM ECM's. With all the extra limiters, modifiers, and tables involved in LMM tuning VS LBZ, it isn't worth it. Not to mention all the other tuning anomilies that LMM's can exhibit at randomn. And depending on the year OS you run, you might even need BCM's wired in for the LMM ECM to start. I THINK you can manually engage the starter to start one, but wasn't there an issue with it shutting down data output if you did this? it's hard to keep track of all this stuff that I've put togetehr here and there. I know HAWK was running LBZ ECM's after looking into it and all the hurdles that come along with the newer ECM's.

 

[kidturbo]

First I've heard of them not running without TCM.. Got a link?

The whole starting issue is easy. Dave's boat has single LMM without a BCM and he had no issues getting around it. However he does have a TCM in that one with the 6spd. Depending on what it needs to see, I can tell it what the moon is blue if that's what it wants to hear.. I got the CANbus traffic down to where I plan on pulling fuel for the two speed up-shifts.. LOL

 

[LBZ]

The issue is what efilive gives us access to, and the tables needed to do it aren't the same. Your going to need some custom tuning to make it work - I'm sure of it. Which is fine if that's already your plan.

Be way easier to just run LBZ ecm and harness. etc IMO. No advantage to running an LMM over an LBZ.

 

[RPM Motorsports]

2nd, would a Gear Vendors unit be of any help for gearing?

We couldn't even get the GV to last a few 1/4mi passes without killing the cone clutch, not going to work! GV made several updates to the whole unit and never got it to hold, we were killing parts that Larson isn't even phasing.

 

[MarkBroviak]

First I've heard of them not running without TCM.. Got a link?

The whole starting issue is easy. Dave's boat has single LMM without a BCM and he had no issues getting around it. However he does have a TCM in that one with the 6spd. Depending on what it needs to see, I can tell it what the moon is blue if that's what it wants to hear.. I got the CANbus traffic down to where I plan on pulling fuel for the two speed up-shifts.. LOL

I have ran a few on my engine dyno without any major issues without the tcm or bcm hooked up. I actually have more issues with LMM's on my chassis dyno due to VSS fuel limiters we don't have access to yet. LBZ ecm is definitely a lot more user friendly for swaps like this with a lot less tuning issues to deal with.


As far as engine dynoing a setup like this for durability, I think I have one of the best setups around for it just haven't had anyone brave enough(besides myself) or want to spend the money to do something like this but I would love too! I know I couldn't go for hours without some heat exchanging issues but I have 3000gal water tank I run on with a 250-500gal transfer tank. I have a second 1500gal tank that we haven't hooked up yet but have at our facility for future projects because I want to separate the engine coolant from the dyno supply to have the ability to do durability testing like this. I'm one of the few that loves to lean on them for this exact reason. Give me a call sometime if you are at all interested in do some testing with it.:thumb:

 

[DefiantArms]

Id Watch Every minute of this if it happens oh please let it happen haha

 

[kidturbo]

Mark lets plan on it.... No one closer has a decent engine rig that I trust anyways. Since the engines have their own high volume pumps, all they need is 1" feed lines. I can bring a couple more 350 gallon hdpe tanks I have laying around the yard if you want some. I even have 3 steel 500's upright I'll give ya just to get out of my yard.

Kory's also offered to help tune on these. So will likely take him up on that and maybe we can make a weekend of it or something. I'm certainly not afraid of either E35 units. Just so happens I like the LMM option set a little better than LBZ, and have those gateways setup to plugNplay with that platform. If we don't like the results, I'll switch, even to Bosch MS units if need be. But the goal is to show how this can be done affordable, rather than a another 100k setup that looks good at SEMA...

 

[kidturbo]

We couldn't even get the GV to last a few 1/4mi passes without killing the cone clutch, not going to work! GV made several updates to the whole unit and never got it to hold, we were killing parts that Larson isn't even phasing.

What torque levels were you putting to that GV in OD? 1:1 input off a powerglide I'm guessing? I know they are rated to hold 2000hp, but I've always wondered about the torque and that cone clutch setup.

Watched a video last night of Tom Neslons build on a salt flats or Texas Mile COPO with PG into a 3spd Lenco, into a GV unit, and wonder how it liked 2000ft lbs for more than a few seconds.

:thumb: