Twins with Twins, Anyone?

[kidturbo]

If anyone noticed, I cut the Vibrant clamp end off the compressor housing before I even tried to loosen the bell. Why you might ask would you do that since that cover fits the same turbo and engine as is??

Two reasons.
1st. They have greatly modified the newer compressor housings since my purchase 3yrs ago. Beefed up the 3 thread lands, and also the bell thickness. Still a guaranteed to fail design, but does show some effort at least..

2nd. Guessing the same numb scull who first reported something got sucked into the turbo, must also been tasked with removing the bell above. Because someone thought it would be smart to chuck the bell section up in a 3 jaw vice, and stick a breaker bar in the compressor outlet to torque on it. Thus bending the Vibrant O-Ring clamp end out of round, that mates to my PASS blade on upper intake plenum. I at least gave up at strap wrench level, last time tried to adjust them..








Now it's got me wondering if it was same guy who drilled and tapped these set screw holes??

 

[2004LB7]

 

[PureHybrid]

If you want something done right...

 

[kidturbo]

Shouldn't ever needed to mess with it my point.

Not the money either. But when I pay for top shelf products, and go the extra mile to provide feedback, by having them regularly serviced by that manufacturer, I expect a certain level of attention be given in return. And a straight answer, especially when ya know it. If not I'll be first one to call ya a$$ out..

Got the clamps today, mobile welder be here in the morning. Now to wack a couple inches off this outlet..

Check out the diff in meat at bell contact from my old cover above to this new one. They also clearanced the bell to compressor wheel an extra .030 or so that I can tell by naked eye.. Things that make ya go humm....

Also check out the good looking old at least 3 screwed up revisions PASS throttle blade. She never slammed shut during the charger explosion. However, trigger for that option being looked at seriously right now.. lol

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[kidturbo]

Ah yeah, this brings back some fond late night memories.. Some A hole screwed up this alignment 3yrs ago..

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[kidturbo]

But if ya ya save the pieces from your last screw up. It cuts time on your next one.

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[PureHybrid]

How many people do you figure are running the adjustable map groove, and able to give real feedback for them to justify a design modification?

I can't really tell what your finger is on for the one picture, assuming that's the clearance you mentioned.

 

[kidturbo]

Let me give ya s side by side comparison.. 3 points where bell held in place by threaded lands and set screws.

They added 4x the meat on those new housing and modified the bell. One change being shrinking the outside diameter on velocity stack side. Which it needed because old stack had zero clearance to filter or intake tube for air to get around that bell.

By adding more meat to the threaded portions of the compressor housing, they lessened the chance that compressor heat or vibration becoming a factor, and allowing bell to walk free in the threads. Just cause it was seized cold and wouldn't move, doesn't mean it was that way at normal operating temp. IE, 450F as in video above...

Right before trying that baking trick, I had deep discussions with couple buddies on if I could take that apart with hands only. After cleaning and inspecting the exploded compressor housing, I was more than willing to put a Franklin on that wager. But no takers..

However easily proved fault in this adjustable bell design. When you mate two pieces of the same material at widely different temperatures. Your Gap changes dramatically by thousands.. Set screws are worthless in that setting..

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[kidturbo]

In all fairness, I was told especially with these new ones, once I figure where I want the map ring to weld the bell in place. Mark brought this up to me also. Not like I wasn't warned I knew from the previous one walking loose that it could become a problem. However no warning from the manufacturer that it was a KNOWN problem and should be addressed immediately.

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[kidturbo]

Moving on.. Wait, still sinking another 10hrs into turbos today. Seriously need a pit crew. Apply omline..

Tonight's project, hacking the end off brand new compressor housings, and mocking up intake tubes.

Figure if I do it right and weld Vibrants right onto the housings, then if adapting new turbos , or using these on a different application, it should save time then. If I'm wrong on the clearance to cross over exhaust tube, then I'll have to rotate the housings 90deg, and go with intake setup we ran on dyno. No turning back now. LoL

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[TheBac]

Well, there goes that turbo's warranty.

 

[kidturbo]

Well, there goes that turbo's warranty.

Actually, when I cracked open the rebuilt unit, guess what surprise was written inside the compressor housing? Dated after I agreed to the $900 bearings and a new compressor housing..

So, I had zero issues chopping up these units.

 

[TheBac]

Geezus....what is it with companies nowadays and lousy service or poorly made parts?

 

[Bdsankey]

Geezus....what is it with companies nowadays and lousy service or poorly made parts?

And from one of the more expensive turbo builders at that! It sucks to see this happen.

 

[kidturbo]

The whole surge topic got them wanting to replace everything but the turbine housing on that unit. Which brought the grand total to more than buying two brand new units with larger turbine housing at a deeply discounted price.. They really wanted those old models out of the spotlight, and I finally understand why..

Yes they were likely surging before the compressor failure. I never heard it or saw it reflected in the MAP readings, but will take the word of a couple young techs who spent more time closer to those inlets than I have. The map rings / grooves were closed off completely, seized there at time of the explosion as we know. So yes lets just say they were never tuned correctly over the past 50-60hrs of run time. But as one tech put it, VGT's on the 6.0L Powerstokes were known for seizing up and surging horribly. But they're not known for blowing the compressor wheels out the inlet due to it..
.
However in light of new data, I am now 1000% certain that compressor surge had nothing to do with our compressor failure. Zero, zilch, "noda", to the most literal since of the meaning..

I demonstrated the ultimate failure cause in the video above, but left off calling it out right then. Some of you caught that "ting" I'm certain? It all comes down to simple heat expansion 101, and a terrible choice of set screws.. Nothing super complicated like Fingers trying explain me the best way to stick steel to aluminum to build the perfect pistons. That's easy also, beside the high heat, high pressure, vibration, centrifugal force, centripetal forces, and the small fact ya have two different materials expanding and contracting at totally different rates, while the whole mess is spinning 6000Rpms.. Did I miss anything master??

Bullseye has a much simpler design failure just waiting to bite ya. And I'm mostly pissed that they've just beat around the bush for 3yrs, and have never once sent out an email to everyone, or posted on their website saying "STOP RUNNING THESE RACE COVER TURBOS NOW! Because I can pretty well guarantee my failures, will happen to every turbo with an adjustable map grove they have sold to date. Especally if ya run on the street rather than just a 660ft daily blast..

Below is the documented hour by hour failure of these 2 "new" compressor housings. Setup directly from them, and I even re-torqued the set screws after welding the Vibrant rings on, just so they can't claim that heat cycle cause what I saw coming.. Lucky for the masses, Bullseye patterned this unique compressor housing design. Made a few changes to the lader model, and while likely mitigating some damage, the overall design remains horribly flawed. So if ever considering joining 2 pieces of aluminum in a way that can, screwed, adjusted, or removed, please look up their patent, and "NEVER DESIGN ANYTHING LIKE IT".. LOL.

 

[kidturbo]

So I get the intakes tubes all re-fitted, turbos spinning, and head to the boat ramp with a buddy one cloudy afternoon. Map groves are set at widest opening, as requested on my official work order. Boat gets up on plane, runs about a mile, and I stop to check the engine bay. Sure enough, 1.5" seawater line that feeds the charge cooler is leaking. Spraying salt water directly into the brand new outa the box turbo.. No air filters installed... Welcome to the world, hope ya enjoyed your baptism. I hear engines enjoy a little salt in their diet..

Tighten the freaking hose, run another mile, then the sky opens up and dumps 3 inches of rain on us before we get to the marina dock. Dodging ligthting bolts on the bay for the last 30 minutes. So we park the boat, call it a day. 6 miles logged, half that at idle.. Following morning, I board the boat, hear a pump running, and find the ignition switch on Stbd engine shorted out sometime after the rain, and she cranked the stbd engine till the big wire burned off the starter... Those 2 big 20# Novec fire bottles are looking prettier every day...




Down to one engine again, Perfect Child "Port", I idle her back to the ramp 6 miles that evening and bring the boat home to wash it down. We replaced the starter following day, no damage to flywheel. Somehow it shorted to crank pin only enough to power the mini relay, and never fired up, so all was good I guess.. But while washing down the engines, I noticed something didn't look right on Port.. Guess what came loose and fell out of the freaking compressor housing while I idled 6 miles back to the boat ramp??? It was laying on the transmission.. Less than 2hrs on the meter right outa the box., Must have been all that salt water it drank, which caused it to puke up the map ring bell.... OMG I should have been a doctor.. LOL







Actually no Doctorate is required to diagnose this mechanical issue.. The nice little stainless set screws they used are tipped with a nylon point, does well at not damaging the threads when you torque them to the 7inch pounds, or whatever totally useless number they printed on the instruction. Cause once they get hot, that nice little nylon tip just forms perfectly to the fine threaded lands, and the bells spin freely as if no set screws are installed.. I actually screwed it back in without touching the sets... And while Mark said my Gorilla Tape solution below was no good, I say it would hold better than the factory design any day..

 

[Bdsankey]

The whole surge topic got them wanting to replace everything but the turbine housing on that unit. Which brought the grand total to more than buying two brand new units with larger turbine housing at a deeply discounted price.. They really wanted those old models out of the spotlight, and I finally understand why..

Yes they were likely surging before the compressor failure. I never heard it or saw it reflected in the MAP readings, but will take the word of a couple young techs who spent more time closer to those inlets than I have. The map rings / grooves were closed off completely, seized there at time of the explosion as we know. So yes lets just say they were never tuned correctly over the past 50-60hrs of run time. But as one tech put it, VGT's on the 6.0L Powerstokes were known for seizing up and surging horribly. But they're not known for blowing the compressor wheels out the inlet due to it..
.
However in light of new data, I am now 1000% certain that compressor surge had nothing to do with our compressor failure. Zero, zilch, "noda", to the most literal since of the meaning..

I demonstrated the ultimate failure cause in the video above, but left off calling it out right then. Some of you caught that "ting" I'm certain? It all comes down to simple heat expansion 101, and a terrible choice of set screws.. Nothing super complicated like Fingers trying explain me the best way to stick steel to aluminum to build the perfect pistons. That's easy also, beside the high heat, high pressure, vibration, centrifugal force, centripetal forces, and the small fact ya have two different materials expanding and contracting at totally different rates, while the whole mess is spinning 6000Rpms.. Did I miss anything master??

Bullseye has a much simpler design failure just waiting to bite ya. And I'm mostly pissed that they've just beat around the bush for 3yrs, and have never once sent out an email to everyone, or posted on their website saying "STOP RUNNING THESE RACE COVER TURBOS NOW! Because I can pretty well guarantee my failures, will happen to every turbo with an adjustable map grove they have sold to date. Especally if ya run on the street rather than just a 660ft daily blast..

Below is the documented hour by hour failure of these 2 "new" compressor housings. Setup directly from them, and I even re-torqued the set screws after welding the Vibrant rings on, just so they can't claim that heat cycle cause what I saw coming.. Lucky for the masses, Bullseye patterned this unique compressor housing design. Made a few changes to the lader model, and while likely mitigating some damage, the overall design remains horribly flawed. So if ever considering joining 2 pieces of aluminum in a way that can, screwed, adjusted, or removed, please look up their patent, and "NEVER DESIGN ANYTHING LIKE IT".. LOL.

I hope if/when they fail that you will not have too much collateral damage. I bet they would be awesome units in a different application (maybe with the bells welded?) but it sure doesn't seem ideal in your usage.

 

[kidturbo]

Not to a negative Nancy, I mean chit happens, things break, multiple times, same part, doesn't mean it's bad does it.. Maybe I'm just not following instructions.. So lets start from scratch, loosen all the set screws, adjust the bells to a more realistic map grove gap of say 3 turns out ".200", torque set screws a little more than suggested, and mark the bell positions with a blue marker and try again..

YEAH RIGHT!!

Made it 2 miles at part throttle, 20 minutes run time, and both bells spun 1/4 to 1/2 turn with no salt water additives. Somehow they've managed to make them unscrews only now when they come lose at least. And I left the seat down so I could hear if they touched again..

 

[2004LB7]

that compressor housing snout / intake whatever it's called really needs to have a few slots and a band clamp around it so when tightened up it squeezes the intake snout down onto the threads all the way around the bell

 

[Bdsankey]

that compressor housing snout / intake whatever it's called really needs to have a few slots and a band clamp around it so when tightened up it squeezes the intake snout down onto the threads all the way around the bell

Or a tack weld in all 3 locations where the movable bell threads into the cover.