Twins with Twins, Anyone?

Bdsankey

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JoshH said:
Industrial Injection has their XP line of CP3 pumps that are both bored and stroked. From what I understand, they have 2 levels. Stock plungers are 7.5 mm, the standard XP pump bumps that up to 8.5 mm, but I hear they also have one that is 9.5 mm. They are all a 12 mm stroker pump, but I'm sure they could do something custom for you if you called them. I installed one of their 8.5 mm pumps in a customer's truck after talking to a few people who have run them, and it is working good so far, but I have very little run time on it and can't speak to the reliability or longevity.
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IIRC the old pump was 8.5mm plunger, the new pump is 9mm plunger but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong lol. I had the same thought as you, maybe Ken could get a standard stroke or 10mm stroke with the large plunger and still achieve his goals while lessening some of the loads the eccentric shaft would see as the ramp angle would be far lower.

Rough math puts the following pumps/dimensions at X flow per plunger per stroke (note, purely volume calculation not a direct fuel output value):

-Stock CP3 (7.5mm bore x 8.2mm stroke): 362.26mm3
-10mm stroker (stock bore): 441.79mm3
-12mm stroker (stock bore): 530.14mm3
-14mm stroker (stock bore): 618.50mm3
-Old II XP (8.5mm bore x 12mm stroke): 680.94mm3
-New II XP (9.0mm bore x 12mm stroke): 763.41mm3
-Custom 9mm bored x stock stroke: 521.66mm3
-Custom 9mm bored x 10mm stroke: 636.17mm3

Based on those quick calcs, a stock stroke custom bored pump would come damn near his current fuel volume.
 
kidturbo

kidturbo

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Note to Future Self. Cut siezed fuel line off of injector rather than mount injector in vice and use cheater bar on wrench,, $400 lesson.

Decided to send all the injectors out to be cleaned and flowed while down on the pump and drive situation..
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juddski88

juddski88

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kidturbo said:
Note to Future Self. Cut siezed fuel line off of injector rather than mount injector in vice and use cheater bar on wrench,, $400 lesson.

Decided to send all the injectors out to be cleaned and flowed while down on the pump and drive situation..
171df303427beebe5d7121f101f907c1.jpg
87b579acf2f18fa9e139e283032da54e.jpg


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Child's play! Just wait till you have a couple refuse to exit the bore!
 
kidturbo

kidturbo

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juddski88 said:
Child's play! Just wait till you have a couple refuse to exit the bore!
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I've read some of those horror stories. However the tip usually doesn't break off before they finally come loose.. Bosch somehow crimps those line fittings once screwed into the injector body, with no intention of them ever being removed.

I was being a smart ass when my young helper said "Can't get this last injector out because this line won't break lose." I'd just previously removed all the sticks from the other engine, so zipped that retainer loose and popped it right out for him... Ta-Da.. The next morning was a real downer. I even heated it first, and it still bit me. Was only thinking how hard it's gonna be to get another fuel line chromed this week.. 🤔

I did order 2 sets of billet injector hold downs to go back on with. Out of 16 sticks, had one copper with a little soot line on the bottom where a speck of dirt must have hung it up for moment. Horror stories about leaking flames past the coppers do actually scare me. These factory retainers and bolts have only been torqued a dozen times or so now... :D
 
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juddski88

juddski88

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I have a full set of chromed LBZ lines actually, if you need them. I had them done about 8 years ago by the guy to who does a lot of work for Jay Lenno here in Holyoke, MA when I thought I was going to keep chasing horsepower and big events.
 
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S Phinney

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kidturbo said:
I spent last 3 days speaking with ever BOSCH specialist I know of. Consensus is the oversize plunger raises the load on the cam followers exponentially. While this may not be a problem on trucks, the high sustained RPM goes into the realm of unknown on the strokers. Lubrication or heat, or a combination is obviously the cause, but I've yet to gather any data.

Randy from Exergy is bringing me a 12mil pump Monday, and we will give it another swing, with some lube added. Also going to put the IR camera to work and log some temps on feeds, rails and returns at speed. That and regulator duty cycle is what they all wanta know. Hopefully we can all learn something from this.

The other consensus from the pros, go back to a dual stock CP3 setup and call it done. Since these already run an electric water pump, just move the fuse block and hour meter, bolt one up in minutes..
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I was talking with Ryan yesterday. I always upgrade my returns as well to cut down on heat. What are you running for return line size? Where did you get the mango to AN fittings?


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kidturbo

kidturbo

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S Phinney said:
I was talking with Ryan yesterday. I always upgrade my returns as well to cut down on heat. What are you running for return line size? Where did you get the mango to AN fittings?


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I hope Ryan got some rest, kids been running circles around me on seat millage over past month. Let him sleep today, he's got a Fluidamper to pull for me.. 😂

The return "line" is a 3/8" SS that I welded some barb fittings into. Larger return outa the pump, 4mm off the injectors, dumping directly into fuel cooler [pic 2]. Outa the cooler, uphill to slightly above crankshaft level, back into the tank. The cooler is directly off the seawater pump, but very simple design. Just a SS tube thru a tube, so might need to go copper, not sure yet.

I looked as some IR photos couple days back that showed the front of engine, no significant heat signatures noticed. But soon as we are running again, will be all over those lines shooting temps at speed. One problem I found with IR cameras, they read Black within a deg or so, but chrome or stainless, it will read your reflection closer. So will be putting some black tape on the injector feeds to get a good read.

AN Banjo fitting came from Jegs. Part # is listed somewhere many pages back, so do a quick thread search. Dang best part of the whole fuel system IMO.. LOL



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Fuel-Return-Line.jpg
 
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kidturbo

kidturbo

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Back in FL and set on pulling that Fludamper tomorrow. Wish me luck..

All the injectors checked out fine, especially that brand new one. Guess the old line that CP3 failures pass no metal stands true. Nothing weird found with any of the 16 sticks. And thus balance rates are over rated. Thinking about doing a cerakoat on the injector bodies before reinstalling them this time. Anyone ever do coatings before??

Had a long chat with Randy from Exergy last week. Said on both failures all the plungers remained in the bore properly. But they couldn't get any deeper into this last pump without using a band saw. Like the first one, it welded the gear to the shaft before she came to a stop. But this one did make his top shelf collection as worst CP3 failure ever. !!! WINNER !!!

After our chat, I believe he likely solved the failure puzzle. Pretty smart cat who knows how to properly investigate a crime scene. Short of it, doesn't think we should see any similar problems with our new 12mm pumps. Didn't look to be lubricity or heat related, as no scoring noted on the obcentric. Nor was it contaminated fuel. Most likely they took some pressure spikes at high sustained R's, and without rail relief valves, certain internals didn't respond well after multiple hits over time. A few SN's after my original early purchase, they made some changes that should insure this failure never happens. Seems nobody else ever thrashed a 12mm hard enough and long enough in real world to prove his point, until 5yrs later.

Once he explained the whole deal, and what tests were performed on my remains, pretty happy to say I'll give em another shot. But we are going to add some custom relief valves to the system as a safety. Mostly because the potential to blow a line is more of a concern now than blowing a pump again. I once saw a video of Duramax blowing a high pressure line. Thinking that would likely really smoke up the those glass engine covers, at the very least.. lol
 
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Bdsankey

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I've been running the Exergy single-stage reliefs on every high hp application including both my trucks and have been very pleased. They've always worked as intended and at the proper pressures.
 
kidturbo

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Good to hear those work well. He said they can set within 200bar of max desired line pressure. Soon as we decide what that number is. Looking at logs and fuel tables, we've been running about 190mpa majority of the operating time. So the pumps are getting a workout. Plus it seems spikes can occur up there faster than the sensor or ECM can register it. I come from the school of stock pumps, just cap that puppy off. With high lift psi on stroked out pumps, guess that's not the best approach any longer.

On a side note, there does seem to be some logic behind running lower pressure with lower lubricity fuels in other applications. At least that seems to be the practice. But glad to hear in our case, nothing pointed to the fuel. So they should be happy with a little bioD added to the blend going forward.
 
THEFERMANATOR

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kidturbo said:
So they should be happy with a little bioD added to the blend going forward.
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I would be concerned about growth in the tanks running bio in a marine environment. I know bio is supposed to attract moisture better than diesel does, and that would create a higher chance of bacterial/microbial growth. At the least you should add biocide every fillup to combat it.
 
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