Towing Compounds

[Bdsankey]

I am extremely torn on a compound set for my truck and am looking for experience from other members. The truck is my 02 LB7 in my sig (built motor, built trans, 70% injectors, 12mm cp3 etc) and am debating about going to either S300/S400 or IHI/S400. My goal is an extremely good towing setup but also make a little more steam up top than the typical S475 over stock kit. I want to be able to hook to 22-24k lbs (new trailer is 22k GAWR) and be efficient. I understand this is a large amount of weight and my trailer will rarely ever be this loaded but I don't want to get into an "oh crap, it's too heavy" situation with my turbo choice since it will be a daily driver and tow rig first and foremost.


I'm really thinking about three main setups:
1) S362/68 with an internal gate and a S476/96 over top
2) S364.5/68 with an internal gate and a S480/96 over top
3) Drop-in big turbine 64mm comp wheel IHI with a S480/96 over top.


My gut is going towards a 364.5/68 gated with a 480/96 over it.

 

[gmduramax]

That’s asking a lot for that 02 But I’ve found that while towing a bigger turbo isn’t so bad to drive. You’re usually more into the throttle and the turbo is spooled. I actually enjoyed my 80mm as a single better while towing.
I would say do an S464 with a S485 but I make bad decisions

 

[Bdsankey]

That’s asking a lot for that 02 But I’ve found that while towing a bigger turbo isn’t so bad to drive. You’re usually more into the throttle and the turbo is spooled. I actually enjoyed my 80mm as a single better while towing.
I would say do an S464 with a S485 but I make bad decisions

I'm not opposed to S400/S400 at all, but I don't know if I need it in this case. Hell, I don't need anything more than a S475/stock kit but since I'm going to NOT pull my LLY at ever sled pull I attend I probably should have something that isn't a slouch and can actually hold its own. I've come to the conclusion that 1 ton driveline isn't exactly the most fun to make hold power on dirt above 1k hp. My LLY will make some hooks at big money pulls or when I get the itch, it'll mainly be a street truck and drag truck going forward.

 

[fl0w3n]

That’s asking a lot for that 02 But I’ve found that while towing a bigger turbo isn’t so bad to drive. You’re usually more into the throttle and the turbo is spooled. I actually enjoyed my 80mm as a single better while towing.
I would say do an S464 with a S485 but I make bad decisions

Are you saying it's asking a lot of his motor build or asking a lot of the 02 chassis/platform?

 

[gmduramax]

Are you saying it's asking a lot of his motor build or asking a lot of the 02 chassis/platform?

chassis and cooling system will be taxed but it can do it

 

[Bdsankey]

chassis and cooling system will be taxed but it can do it

Yeah, I know that going into it. My saving grace is where I live. There are not a ton of hills, ambient summer temps are usually 80-85f on hot days (sometimes just over 90f), and I am near sea level.



Pretty sure it's going to be a S364.5sxe/68/0.91 and a S480/96/1.32. My new trailer, like I said, will be 22-26k GAWR (haven't ordered yet) but I will very rarely be at that weight. I would say the average weight would be ~16k (trailer plus one truck and some weights/tires/parts etc). The only times it would be loaded to the max would be few and far between with an understanding of having to slow it down to keep the chassis and brakes happy (brakes will be LML hydroboost with either Powerstop Z36 or EBC pads/rotors). I'm not worried about oil temp as that has been handled but coolant temp would be my main temperature concern.

 

[fl0w3n]

As with most of your threads, I'll be lurking and trying to learn.

I'd be curious as to what it would take to get the GMT800 chassis platform and cooling up to par to handle that type of loads on hills/at desert ambient temps, and how that money would compare to a newer stock truck with higher ratings out of the box. I know most of us are on the forum because we like the older trucks and making them do things they were never intended to do, but for bench racing sake it would be interesting. Might need Kowclub or Malibu's input on that one. Sorry, I feel like I'm derailing your thread now haha

 

[Bdsankey]

As with most of your threads, I'll be lurking and trying to learn.

I'd be curious as to what it would take to get the GMT800 chassis platform and cooling up to par to handle that type of loads on hills/at desert ambient temps, and how that money would compare to a newer stock truck with higher ratings out of the box. I know most of us are on the forum because we like the older trucks and making them do things they were never intended to do, but for bench racing sake it would be interesting. Might need Kowclub or Malibu's input on that one. Sorry, I feel like I'm derailing your thread now haha

There are 2 reasons for doing this to my LB7. The first is I love the look of these trucks and the second is it was a gift from my father. He originally bought the truck from me because I needed to free up some income directly out of college and took on too much debt initially. He bought it, repainted it, and gave it back to me a few months before my wedding so this one is here to stay.


The only complaints I have against the 01/02 is the front seats aren't the most comfortable and I REALLY want cooled seats. Conveniently I can put 03-07 classic seats in and retain power function (IDK on the memory function) and Katzskin solves the heated/cooled issue (currently has heated seats) as well as makes the OEM button the door useless.


I've been talking to a few guys who've tried this concept and I've received positive feedback. Most seem to run the larger turbine but they also weren't aiming for 700-800hp (they were aiming higher) so it should be a fine balance. Worst case I can swap out the valley charger as they aren't overly expensive and all the piping should carry over.

 

[fl0w3n]

There are 2 reasons for doing this to my LB7. The first is I love the look of these trucks and the second is it was a gift from my father. He originally bought the truck from me because I needed to free up some income directly out of college and took on too much debt initially. He bought it, repainted it, and gave it back to me a few months before my wedding so this one is here to stay.


The only complaints I have against the 01/02 is the front seats aren't the most comfortable and I REALLY want cooled seats. Conveniently I can put 03-07 classic seats in and retain power function (IDK on the memory function) and Katzskin solves the heated/cooled issue (currently has heated seats) as well as makes the OEM button the door useless.


I've been talking to a few guys who've tried this concept and I've received positive feedback. Most seem to run the larger turbine but they also weren't aiming for 700-800hp (they were aiming higher) so it should be a fine balance. Worst case I can swap out the valley charger as they aren't overly expensive and all the piping should carry over.

I definitely wasn't knocking the truck choice, I'm on my 6th GMT800 truck and I'll probably own one or more for the foreseeable future. They are just such a great platform. My first ever truck was a GMT800
That's some awesome sentimental value behind the truck, and it looks so good with that new paint job.

Agreed on the seats in 01/02, however I'd take it even further that I prefer the 03+ center console and the proper double DIN sized dash. Steering wheel is debatable, I think I prefer 03+. I'm over the cateyes, which is why I have two GMC's right now, and liking the looks of the 01/02 HD more and more these days.

I'm still trying to learn about turbos, I've never messed with them so I'm no use ... just here to learn. I don't even know what the numbers truly mean yet, other than knowing they refer to the sizing of either the compressor or turbine.

 

[Chevy1925]

As with most of your threads, I'll be lurking and trying to learn.

I'd be curious as to what it would take to get the GMT800 chassis platform and cooling up to par to handle that type of loads on hills/at desert ambient temps, and how that money would compare to a newer stock truck with higher ratings out of the box. I know most of us are on the forum because we like the older trucks and making them do things they were never intended to do, but for bench racing sake it would be interesting. Might need Kowclub or Malibu's input on that one. Sorry, I feel like I'm derailing your thread now haha

you wont be able to get a gmt800 chassis to match that of say my 2020. you need the cooling stack and fan this thing has to have any chance of staying under 220* during the summer in high heat and pulling hills. it is massively larger than the older gens and i can still get my truck to 235* before the fan finally goes full force and starts to drop temps, but it WILL drop temp substantially and quickly unlike even the 17-19's. Fish's 19 runs hotter up the hills than mine does doing the same load, power and flat foot to the top. its remarkable in the difference.

There are 2 reasons for doing this to my LB7. The first is I love the look of these trucks and the second is it was a gift from my father. He originally bought the truck from me because I needed to free up some income directly out of college and took on too much debt initially. He bought it, repainted it, and gave it back to me a few months before my wedding so this one is here to stay.


The only complaints I have against the 01/02 is the front seats aren't the most comfortable and I REALLY want cooled seats. Conveniently I can put 03-07 classic seats in and retain power function (IDK on the memory function) and Katzskin solves the heated/cooled issue (currently has heated seats) as well as makes the OEM button the door useless.


I've been talking to a few guys who've tried this concept and I've received positive feedback. Most seem to run the larger turbine but they also weren't aiming for 700-800hp (they were aiming higher) so it should be a fine balance. Worst case I can swap out the valley charger as they aren't overly expensive and all the piping should carry over.

i personally would leave the stock charger in the valley and just port/polish it. but i like real fast spool up.

if you put a cam and some stg 2 heads matched to the turbo on the truck, a 364sxe would probably spool as fast as the stocker. the jump from a 475 to a 480 isnt worth it unless you put a race cover on and possibly a wheel. the cover gives a large gain in flow though.

that puts you in the 800hp range without maxing out fueling on those injectors.

if you load that thing to max, i will bet you have cooling issues even on smaller hills. if guys say they dont, they are lieing or are not making the power they say they do. 31k gross is heavy.

 

[Bdsankey]

i personally would leave the stock charger in the valley and just port/polish it. but i like real fast spool up.

if you put a cam and some stg 2 heads matched to the turbo on the truck, a 364sxe would probably spool as fast as the stocker. the jump from a 475 to a 480 isnt worth it unless you put a race cover on and possibly a wheel. the cover gives a large gain in flow though.

that puts you in the 800hp range without maxing out fueling on those injectors.

if you load that thing to max, i will bet you have cooling issues even on smaller hills. if guys say they dont, they are lieing or are not making the power they say they do. 31k gross is heavy.

My only complaint with leaving the stock charger in is that it needs to be overhauled (has play and slight comp wheel damage). I'm planning on leaving the heads stock in terms of valve size/porting but they will get springs/pushrods.


The chargers will be billet. The S300 would either be a genuine SXE or Forced Inductions. The atmoshperic will be Forced Inductions.


As for cooling, I 100% understand that. If I gross 31k with this 2002 I will have cooling issues in terms of coolant, I have oil temp under control with a 2020 cooler and a massive derale with 9" SPAL fan. I've been looking into the aux radiator you used on the Limo. If it made 700-800hp with the fuel turned up I would be pretty happy. I've been talking to another member on here (@dirtymax36) who ran a 364.5/74/0.91 wiht a 480/96/1.32 and he has been kind enough to send me some videos of ~14k hooked behind it and it doesn't show any signs of being labored/lazy (obviously 14k isn't my desired load but it gives me an idea of how quick they come on).

 

[gmduramax]

My only complaint with leaving the stock charger in is that it needs to be overhauled (has play and slight comp wheel damage). I'm planning on leaving the heads stock in terms of valve size/porting but they will get springs/pushrods.


The chargers will be billet. The S300 would either be a genuine SXE or Forced Inductions. The atmoshperic will be Forced Inductions.


As for cooling, I 100% understand that. If I gross 31k with this 2002 I will have cooling issues in terms of coolant, I have oil temp under control with a 2020 cooler and a massive derale with 9" SPAL fan. I've been looking into the aux radiator you used on the Limo. If it made 700-800hp with the fuel turned up I would be pretty happy. I've been talking to another member on here (@dirtymax36) who ran a 364.5/74/0.91 wiht a 480/96/1.32 and he has been kind enough to send me some videos of ~14k hooked behind it and it doesn't show any signs of being labored/lazy (obviously 14k isn't my desired load but it gives me an idea of how quick they come on).

You want to buy that aux radiator?

 

[Bdsankey]

You want to buy that aux radiator?

I'll send you a message.

 

[Chevy1925]

As long as your in the right rpm for the turbo, it won’t care. I just didn’t want to have to worry about downshifting at 1700-1800rpm where I cruised 75 while towing. Egt’s stayed nice, boost was at 15-20 psi and you could still pull some grades without issue. That’s grossing 24-25k.

I had a couple guys do lag tests with fleece 364, box stock 366 and sxe369. Both the 64 and 66 would not come on boost till 1800rpm. Meaning it was just coming up to 5psi there and high egts. 369 came in at 2000-2100 which was surprising for the size and flow.

 

[Bdsankey]

As long as your in the right rpm for the turbo, it won’t care. I just didn’t want to have to worry about downshifting at 1700-1800rpm where I cruised 75 while towing. Egt’s stayed nice, boost was at 15-20 psi and you could still pull some grades without issue. That’s grossing 24-25k.

I had a couple guys do lag tests with fleece 364, box stock 366 and sxe369. Both the 64 and 66 would not come on boost till 1800rpm. Meaning it was just coming up to 5psi there and high egts. 369 came in at 2000-2100 which was surprising for the size and flow.

What size tires were you running? I'm running 285/75R16 which puts it just over 2000rpm cruising at 75. Right now my stock turbo grossing 24k to Denver and back would hit ~1300-1350f on a sustained steep grade in ~94f ambient on a 75hp tune.

 

[Chevy1925]

I ran a few different ratios to my tire size. Initially it was 37s in 3.73 gears. That was 1700 at 70mph in 5th. Then came 4.56 gears and 37, that was 2150 at 70mph. Then 6th gear was added and dropped to 1750ish at 70mph.

1700 was real nice and quiet to cruise at. 2150 was noisy but didn’t bug me, I just didn’t like the fact I was stuck at 2250 at 75. 6th was REAL nice as it was quick to kick out to 5th with the tow/haul button and would drop egts further for larger grades. It’s like the in between gears I have in the 10 speed now. I set the programming so that tow/haul locked out 6th but normal had 6th engaged. Then an odlo button for 5th gear lock out.

 

[Bdsankey]

I ran a few different ratios to my tire size. Initially it was 37s in 3.73 gears. That was 1700 at 70mph in 5th. Then came 4.56 gears and 37, that was 2150 at 70mph. Then 6th gear was added and dropped to 1750ish at 70mph.

1700 was real nice and quiet to cruise at. 2150 was noisy but didn’t bug me, I just didn’t like the fact I was stuck at 2250 at 75. 6th was REAL nice as it was quick to kick out to 5th with the tow/haul button and would drop egts further for larger grades. It’s like the in between gears I have in the 10 speed now. I set the programming so that tow/haul locked out 6th but normal had 6th engaged. Then an odlo button for 5th gear lock out.

I've thought about the 6spd kit but I'll likely stay 3.73 and 285/75R16 with 5spd. 2000rpm doesn't bother me much at 75 and I try to not cruise faster than 80 loaded around here. Empty the 6spd kit would be nice for commuting to/from work.

 

[Bdsankey]

After talking to the Cokers (@coker6365 and @coker6303) and reading the praise Josh (@JoshH) gave the compounds on Russell's old CC/SB LMM , I will be going that route. They ran a S364.5/68/0.91 and a S480/96/1.10. This should get me the driveability I'm looking for and they've also grossed the kind of weight (Russell tells me they've had it to ~30k gross with the LMM) and performance I'm after. It seems like drive pressure was under control below ~3500rpm at the HP level they pushed the truck to which IIRC was near 700hp. My goal of 700-800hp seems pretty achievable with this setup.

As Josh found out, when he tried to push this setup harder the S480 said bye-bye from likely overspeed.


Josh's TNG Shop Truck Build Thread

 

[fl0w3n]

After talking to the Cokers (@coker6365 and @coker6303) and reading the praise Josh (@JoshH) gave the compounds on Russell's old CC/SB LMM , I will be going that route. They ran a S364.5/68/0.91 and a S480/96/1.10. This should get me the driveability I'm looking for and they've also grossed the kind of weight (Russell tells me they've had it to ~30k gross with the LMM) and performance I'm after. It seems like drive pressure was under control below ~3500rpm at the HP level they pushed the truck to which IIRC was near 700hp. My goal of 700-800hp seems pretty achievable with this setup.

As Josh found out, when he tried to push this setup harder the S480 said bye-bye from likely overspeed.


Josh's TNG Shop Truck Build Thread

If it’s not a derailment to this thread ... do you mind clarifying what you’re calling out in the turbo with all those numbers? I believe you’re saying a 64.5mm compressor over a 68mm turbine, with a 0.91 AR?
What does the S3xx and S4xx mean?

Is the power goal or towing goal the bigger driving factor in deciding that turbo setup? Meaning, if your goal was only 450-500hp but with the same towing requirements, would you go a drastically different route?

 

[Bdsankey]

If it’s not a derailment to this thread ... do you mind clarifying what you’re calling out in the turbo with all those numbers? I believe you’re saying a 64.5mm compressor over a 68mm turbine, with a 0.91 AR?
What does the S3xx and S4xx mean?

Is the power goal or towing goal the bigger driving factor in deciding that turbo setup? Meaning, if your goal was only 450-500hp but with the same towing requirements, would you go a drastically different route?

364.5/68/0.91 T4 means:
Borg Warner S300 chassis/frame (size)
64.5mm compressor inducer diameter
68mm turbine wheel exducer diameter (outlet to downpipe)
-This turbine wheel is 76mm inducer and 68mm exducer, I've always seen S300's referred to as the turbine exducer size and S400s referred to by turbine inducer size. Why this is I haven't the slightest clue.
0.91 turbine housing A/R (area/radius)
T4 foot/flange (size)

S480/96/1.10 T6 means:
Borg Warner S400 chassis/frame
80mm compressor wheel inducer diameter
96mm turbine wheel inducer diameter
-This turbine wheel is 96mm inducer and 88mm exducer
1.10 turbine housing A/R
T6 foot/flange


The towing goal and power goals are the main factors (not a direct answer but bear with me). I want to be able to gross 25-30k lbs towing. I can do that with a much smaller turbo set than I am going to BUT this setup will also tow my desired weight and do it well. By going to this turbo setup I can tow the weight I want and get a little more “get up and go” over a smaller setup which makes it a little more spirited when a trailer isn’t hooked to it.


If my overall goal was 450-500 total hp I would add a S475/96/1.10 t6 or 1.15 over the stock turbo and enjoy reduced EGTs with a little added power. I personally don’t believe the stock turbo is sufficient to handle this weight. At 24k lbs my turbo was screaming for air as it was out of its map at at that weight and RPM. It would clip 1300-1350f at 75mph running 4th gear up the hills between Wisconsin and Colorado and is arguably the longest trip I’ve made towing heavy.




I’m doing everything I can to make my towing and driving experience better. I want to be able to set the cruise and NEVER have to think “is this hill too big?" or "is the truck going to overheat up this pass making me slow down?".