Headers and hi flow up pipes

[McRat]

To me it seems that a couple here don't like me and have a different set of rules applying to them and the staff backing them up. Thats OK though cause I have other places to be.

I never made any accusations. I stated that I wasn't confident with the bellows he used, and I've been warned twice now for that.

Anyone wanting to talk to me can visit me on one of the other sites I frequent.

This is an Open Site. You are free to read or post all over the internet with no reprocussions affecting your status here.

It is a bizarre concept to use in 2008, but it is the right path.

However, if you do not approve of someone else's design work, you are going to have to be more specific or diplomatic. I don't like your design ain't going to fly in a tech thread. If you have a set of headers from Paul and they failed, you can post that. If you "think" they can't hack it, you CAN'T post that.

It's very simple. This is not TheTTSPlace. Data, not slander rules the roost here. If you do not want to follow our guidelines, please post at your new website www.dieseltowingresource.com ? or the old website TDP.

This message is for everyone, not just Rick. If you do not like having to post using common courtesy, you have thousands of sites you can visit that love fighting in tech threads.

This however, is not the right board for that.

Pat, Kat, and Rob

 

[McRat]

Back to the tech:

Modern exhaust bellows are fairly durable. This pipe went yellow hot, and reshaped itself down it's entire length, expanding the bellows out.

It never leaked.

 

[TNRGreene]

I will take the high road & only offer a short opinion. I don't believe Rick did anything wrong in this thread. The knowledge we are running off is nutz. We do not use products we are not sure of & I believe that is what Rick was saying. He may have been wrong to name Turbo Buick 6 by name though but not wrong in questioning a piece that is purchased. If TB6 had manufactured the bellows then I may feel differently. Carry on

 

[SmokeShow]

I'm with TNR for what it's worth... didn't see *that* bad of an infraction. Foul? perhaps. Intentional/Technical Foul? Nah, not IMO.


I'd like to hear some more about log style headers...

 

[TNRGreene]

I'd like to hear some more about log style headers...

Now you talking Somebody posted about these a while ago on the DP. That marine DMax also has them. Rick can you HEAR me? :hello:

 

[Rttoys]

It's very simple. This is not TheTTSPlace. Data, not slander rules the roost here. If you do not want to follow our guidelines, please post at your new website www.dieseltowingresource.com ? or the old website TDP.

No, it looks like his new home is www.thedieselspot.com he's already Lead Mod over there.

To me, info is info and we are all in this together.:hug:

 

[Jerod Jardine]

The log style "header" is a glorified manifold. You can make good power with on a boosted engine. My line of thought is that a header gives each pulse some where to go in an organized way. A manifold has one wave coming down the pipe and gets run into by another trying to do the same thing. Someones got to go or wait. This causes back presure and turbulance. You can over come this by more boost or build a better desined header. You can also run a bigger runner on your manifold to give these waves room but then you run into a loss of velocity this will cause backpresure. The problem lies in that ultimatly on a turboed motor it's best to get the exhaust to the turbo asap. A manifold is alot of times more eficiant at doing this.
I may be a little one sided towards the header though.
Thanks,
Jerod.

 

[McRat]

I'm with TNR for what it's worth... didn't see *that* bad of an infraction. Foul? perhaps. Intentional/Technical Foul? Nah, not IMO.


I'd like to hear some more about log style headers...

Well, no action was taken.

I posted my position on it.

Since Rick is selling headers, how do you separate legitimate criticism from marketing?

You don't. Rick would just need to talk about his product, or data that indicates his opinion on Paul's design is based on something other than sales plans.

I have no dog in this hunt either way, other than I need to prove that Vendors are capable of doing something other than insulting people.

So far, this has not been a real problem. Nor will it be.

=======================================================

As far as log style goes, that is the only design I will put on my trucks. Nobody makes them though.

We cannot fit a primary tube long enough to have any real effect on scavenging, so tuned-length never comes into play. For a 7,000 rpm engine they are about 32"-40" long IIRC. The less the RPM, the more the length.

 

[TNRGreene]

I'm with TNR for what it's worth

What are you freakin nuts? Never agree with me

Just seems to me that this is "kinda" what was going on with Pat @ the DP sometimes. Maybe it is too fine of a line to determine, If he said anything about TB6' products Rick was wrong but question a part that was purchased from an outside source is different. What else I think is instead of getting offended about the comment Rick should have been asked to explain. If his answer was "just because" then maybe something should/could be said. I for one hope this issue dies & we can discuss ALL the advantages/disadvantages to make all of our trucks better.
Sorry for the long post it started out just being funny

 

[ROGUE GTS]

The log style "header" is a glorified manifold. You can make good power with on a boosted engine. My line of thought is that a header gives each pulse some where to go in an organized way. A manifold has one wave coming down the pipe and gets run into by another trying to do the same thing. Someones got to go or wait. This causes back presure and turbulance. You can over come this by more boost or build a better desined header. You can also run a bigger runner on your manifold to give these waves room but then you run into a loss of velocity this will cause backpresure. The problem lies in that ultimatly on a turboed motor it's best to get the exhaust to the turbo asap. A manifold is alot of times more eficiant at doing this.
I may be a little one sided towards the header though.
Thanks,
Jerod.

Honestly, from my experience a WELL DESIGNED LOG is not a bad way to go at all... but there are some tricks to making them work WELL, and it's all in the cross sectional area, directing the flow from the ports, sonic reverberation, etc.

They obviously will give up a little flow to a great equal length, properly sequenced header, but only in the upper rpm range. And actually give up some power and spooling on the lower end.

IMO, people vastly over-glorify the "header" terminology when in fact MOST of the time, their header is of piss poor design, has no R&D behind it, and just generally sucks. Just because you plug 4 curvy tubes into a collector and call it a 'header' doesn't make it good. In fact more likely than not they are causing flow and reverberation issues by not having the pulse timing properly oriented, or even doing various length, and CSA tests to back up their unproven theories.

Don't hate on the log design, it's can be made to work very very well and won't break like EVERY turbo header eventually will.

 

[SmokeShow]

so... on a log-style header/manifold, would it be best to be tubular or a cast piece? In terms of flow and ability to handle the heat over time...

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

Back to the tech:

Modern exhaust bellows are fairly durable. This pipe went yellow hot, and reshaped itself down it's entire length, expanding the bellows out.

It never leaked.

A braided stainless mesh around the bellows would have prevented this.


PS I will let this go, but I will say one more thing. To dissagree with using bellows is perfectly fine and anyone has the right to do so. What is wrong is to refer to one by my name when no one here knows what I used on mine. Just like anything in life there are different grades of quality. And there are also bellows out there that are perfectly smooth inside.

 

[Jerod Jardine]

I'm not hating on the log. I think I summed it up in my last 2 sentences. Pat also has a point about the length, mathmatically. I'm here not to sell any thing or trying to. My family has been in the header business since the late 50's. My father developed the try-y, 4-1, merge, zoomie, reverse meg. We've built headers for Ford and Chevy Drag race teams. Offenhauser indy car teams, Robby Gordon, John Force and many others. Their is alot of whichcraft and therory out there concerning exhaust flow. I agree with Rogue GTS on the fact that most header manufactures build stuff today with out much R&D going into the desing. They're more concerned about getting to market. In the last year we've developing some gas header part numbers and it would suprise you how headers on the market actually hurt performance compared to stock manifolds.
The main reason I'm on these forums is mainly to learn and maybe to educate. I could be over on some other infamous sites right now trying to sell the guy a 5" exhaust system because it sounds more cooler though I now it'll probably hurt him.
Yours,
Jerod.

 

[WolfLMM]

I hope Rick will reconsider and come back into this thread. We are all in this together.

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

Honestly, from my experience a WELL DESIGNED LOG is not a bad way to go at all... but there are some tricks to making them work WELL, and it's all in the cross sectional area, directing the flow from the ports, sonic reverberation, etc.

They obviously will give up a little flow to a great equal length, properly sequenced header, but only in the upper rpm range. And actually give up some power and spooling on the lower end.

IMO, people vastly over-glorify the "header" terminology when in fact MOST of the time, their header is of piss poor design, has no R&D behind it, and just generally sucks. Just because you plug 4 curvy tubes into a collector and call it a 'header' doesn't make it good. In fact more likely than not they are causing flow and reverberation issues by not having the pulse timing properly oriented, or even doing various length, and CSA tests to back up their unproven theories.

Don't hate on the log design, it's can be made to work very very well and won't break like EVERY turbo header eventually will.

I agree with with this very much soo. Except for the cracking....from my experiance ANY piece of metal that is subjected to enough heat cycles WILL crack. Some things last longer than others, but I have seen several log style headers crack. Turbo buicks have one on the pass side and it is noted for cracking.

Personally after running headers on my truck, I feel that a log style would be better. It is very posible that there would be more gains on a higher hp truck. But on a truck like mine they only real difference I noticed were lower egts (which I feel came from the bigger up-pipes) and a different sound. IMO most people would be better off with stock manifolds and bigger up-pipes.

Exaust gas is a totally different creature when it is under pressure and becomes much less sensitive to scavenging.

 

[ROGUE GTS]

so... on a log-style header/manifold, would it be best to be tubular or a cast piece? In terms of flow and ability to handle the heat over time...

Short answer... it depends. Cast are generally thicker and thus more resistant to cracking over time. And if you have a good pattern maker, can be a very very nice piece with excellent flow capabilities.

The #1 reason they are used in OEM apps is it's CHEAP to produce 1045772349 of them. After the pattern costs, it's likely less than $10/set to pour the manifolds, and thats on relatively short run stuff.

 

[McRat]

I'm not hating on the log. I think I summed it up in my last 2 sentences. Pat also has a point about the length, mathmatically. I'm here not to sell any thing or trying to. My family has been in the header business since the late 50's. My father developed the try-y, 4-1, merge, zoomie, reverse meg. We've built headers for Ford and Chevy Drag race teams. Offenhauser indy car teams, Robby Gordon, John Force and many others. Their is alot of whichcraft and therory out there concerning exhaust flow. I agree with Rogue GTS on the fact that most header manufactures build stuff today with out much R&D going into the desing. They're more concerned about getting to market. In the last year we've developing some gas header part numbers and it would suprise you how headers on the market actually hurt performance compared to stock manifolds.
The main reason I'm on these forums is mainly to learn and maybe to educate. I could be over on some other infamous sites right now trying to sell the guy a 5" exhaust system because it sounds more cooler though I now it'll probably hurt him.
Yours,
Jerod.

Jerod, your input is appreciated.

We've talked many times over the last couple years, and you've got a good head on your shoulders.

What I'm worried about is folk getting "personal" over tech:

WRONG - "Joe Smith makes crap"

RIGHT - "That is a design I've seen on 4 trucks, and 3 failed so far. But I'm not sure whether it was wall section, welding, or material that was to blame."

A simple act of taking somebodies name out of part design discussions goes a long way.

My response in this thread was an attempt to head off a flame war, by catching it where it starts. Personalizing parts is not productive.

 

[Jerod Jardine]

I'm pretty humble and I'm not trying to knock any bodys stuff. Quite honestly the log desing is probably the most practical on 90% of the trucks out there. To build a header that really works, it has to do a bunch of stuff in a small space. The headers we developed didn't help much. Not enough any way to justify selling them to a guy for what we had to charge for them. I really wished they would, I'd be eating steak right now instead of hamburger.
The whole Diesel hot rod "movement" right now I think can relate to the small block chevy in the '70s. Alot of guys trying things. Some work some don't. My headers don't. I'll be the first to tell you. That's why I've never sent you a set Pat. I'm simply stating what I know from my own testing and what I and others think would work and won't.
Exhaust is not a back art. It's been around for a long time. Most of my fathers "originall" desings were copied from Mazaradi. They had most of the header tech. figured out in the late '40s early '50s. We just screwed with it a little and were the first to make it fit a '58 vette.
I hope I didn't upset any body. That's my last intention here.
Thanks,
Jerod.

 

[LB7Diesel]

I'm pretty humble and I'm not trying to knock any bodys stuff. Quite honestly the log desing is probably the most practical on 90% of the trucks out there. To build a header that really works, it has to do a bunch of stuff in a small space. The headers we developed didn't help much. Not enough any way to justify selling them to a guy for what we had to charge for them. I really wished they would, I'd be eating steak right now instead of hamburger.
The whole Diesel hot rod "movement" right now I think can relate to the small block chevy in the '70s. Alot of guys trying things. Some work some don't. My headers don't. I'll be the first to tell you. That's why I've never sent you a set Pat. I'm simply stating what I know from my own testing and what I and others think would work and won't.
Exhaust is not a back art. It's been around for a long time. Most of my fathers "originall" desings were copied from Mazaradi. They had most of the header tech. figured out in the late '40s early '50s. We just screwed with it a little and were the first to make it fit a '58 vette.
I hope I didn't upset any body. That's my last intention here.
Thanks,
Jerod.

Very good point G-Rod

I really think this thread represent's what this site is about. Alot of us have been here along time to get away from the, " What's the best intake out there" type of questions. Not that it's wrong, most of us were them at one point. It was just nice to be apart of a site that was driven to dig deep and make our trucks better.It was nice to see Pat step in and let everyone know that ideas and theories can be expressed openly without things getting out of control. There's some really good knowledge in this thread and I would hope we can get back to discussing this openly. That includes you Rick!!

Sorry for the Rant Back to the topic!!

 

[Turbo Buick 6]

Don't know if anyone cares but this was my theory on headers. They were to make more power, but not directly. The only gain that I was interested in was lower egts! With lower egts you can add more fuel and get more power. Lets face the fact that no one can build a perfectly tuned header for our trucks, there just isnt enough room to do it. As Pat stated the primarys would have to be much longer than what room allows for. Even if someone could build them, really...how much power would they be worth? My guess is the hp to $ relationship wouldnt be worth it. Yes there are other factors such as spool up and what not, but as I said lower egts were my primary concern. A lot of guys out there have pushed past the limit of safe egts and need something to bring them back in check, but we all know if you were running 2000 degrees and you get it down to 1800, most people are gonna put more fuel to it to try and go faster....thats just the nature of being a true hot rodder at heart:cool2: