Cranks

Status
Not open for further replies.

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
I was going to post a piece or two from Charles Fayette Taylor's Engine balance & Vibration chapter of his ICE in Theory and Practice Vol 2 when I get the chance to add to the thoughts floating around.

I haven't read through the thread yet though.
 
Last edited:

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
Page 279 Chapter 8 Engine Balance & Vibration

Engine Vibration
The subject of engine vibration can be divided into two categories: vibration of the engine parts relative to each other, called internal vibration, and movement of the engine as a whole, called here external vibration.

Internal Engine Vibration. Within the engine structure, the forces created by the interia of the moving parts and by the varying gas pressure in the cylinders must result in deflections of the structural members of the engine, since these parts are elastic. Thus, vibrations of varying frequencies and amplitudes are set up throughout the engine structure.

In any machine in which the applied forces may vary with time, there is always vibratory motion. In practice, this motion must be controlled so as to avoid malfunction, mechanical failure, or excessive noise. Experience shows that the problems in this category most often include crankshaft vibration, both torsional and bending, and vibrations in the valve-operating mechanism.

Crankshaft Torsional Vibration. This subject is treated exhaustively in refs. 8.400 - 8.694. The scope of this volume allows only to summarize the important general relationships involved. It is assumed that thereader is familiar with the general characteristics of vibrating systems.

In general, any engine speed in which torsional vibration is markedly severe is called a critical speed. The order of this speed is the ratio of the observed vibratory frequency to the crankshaft rotational frequency. The torsional vibration characteristics of a crankshaft are of course heavily influenced by the connected equipment. Reduction gears, driveshafts, generators, propellers, couplings, etc., all become part of the torsional system and must be considered in connection therewith (8.06). Particularly complex is a vibration system consisting of an engine with an air propeller mounted on its output shaft, since the propller blades usually have important modes of vibration which tie in with crankshaft torsional vibration (see ref. 8.492).

In predicting critical speeds and other aspects of torsional vibration, the crankshaft-rod-piston system is usually considered to be equivalent to a shaft carrying a disc at each crank position: so chosen that its moment of interia is equal to the moment of interia of the rotating mass at the crank plus R2 times a mass equal to half the total reciprocating mass. The rotating and reciprocating masses are considered to include the concentrated connecting-rod masses indicated in fig. 8-3. The remaining system is simplified in a similar manner by assuming a system of shafts carrying discs whose moments of interia are equivalent to those of the flwheel, couplings, gears, propellers, etc., which form part of the torsional system. The sizes and lengths of the shafts between the various interia elements are chosen so as to be equivalent in stiffness to the actual shafts, as nearly as that can be estimated. Methods of estimating crankshaft stiffness are given in refs. 8.400-8.490 (see espcially 8.400).

In multicrank engines the problem of torsional-virbation analysis is complicated by the fact that the torsional impluses originate at different crank positions at different times. Thus, even if the indicator diagrams were exactly the same in all cylinders andthe firing impluses exactly evenly spaced in time, no torsional order would completely cancel out because of angular deflection of the crankshaft. In the actual case, where indicator diagrams are never exactly alike, it is apparent that all orders of the Fourier series reperesenting engine torque may cause some torsional vibration.

In many practical cases, engines are so connected to the load that their crankshafts behave essentially as isolated vibration system systems. A familiar example is tha conventional automobile engine, where the external system (consisting of gearbox, propeller shaft, rear axle and wheels) has great torsional flexibility compared to with that of the crankshaft and is excited in torsional vibration at very low engine speeds only. The use of a hydrualic clutch or a torque converter between load and flywheel is also an effective way of isolating the engine's torsional system. In such cases, crankshaft torsional vibration is essentially an internal engine problem, and critical speeds can be predicted with a good degree of approximation (8.400-8.490). Calculation of torsional amplitudes is more difficult because damping coefficients are not easy to predict. Some work on this problem (8.50-8.52) indicates that a typical figure for the engine torsional system is 0.02 times critical damping.

Modes of Crankshaft Vibration. Let is consider an isolated torsional system consisting of a crankshaft with a flywheel at one end that has a relatively large moment of interia. The first mode of vibration will be with a node at the flywheel and an antinode at the free end. The higher modes will have a node and antinode at these positions, plus intermediate noeds from 2 to n interger numbers. It is seldom that modes higher than the second are of practical importance, except in the case of in-line engines of more that 8 cylinders (8.400).

For exactly similar designs, frequency in any mode is proportional to I/L (see Volume 1 chapter 11). Figure 8-28 gives data on the first-mode torsional frequency of crankshafts torsionally isolated from the external driven system and carrying a heavy flywheel at one end. In spite of large differences in detail design, this natural frequency shows the paramount influence of shaft length on the torsional frequency. This figure can be used for a rough prediction of first-order critical speed.

Thats all I am able to post in the time I have at the moment. Let me know if anyone would like the titles of the referenced numbers.
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,715
86
48
White Oak, PA
Vibration in an engine or any motor doesn't mean a damn unless the magnitude exceeds the capacity of the components. As I mentioned above, a 10 gram mis-balance on the harmonic balancer only kicks out about 22 lbs of additional load. One pound, about 1000 lbs. That compares to the 45,000 lb load that the engine crank is dealing with from just one combustion event.

The exception is if there is a harmonic in there some place. Even a 1 gram force can compound itself to destructive levels.

But harmonics are very very rpm sensitive.

Wouldn't it be great if all you had to do was plink your crank to find it's harmonic and then "tune" the crank away from the bad frequencies?

:D
 

[email protected]

cmitchell17
Sep 8, 2008
251
0
0
[QUOTEModes of Crankshaft Vibration. Let is consider an isolated torsional system consisting of a crankshaft with a flywheel at one end that has a relatively large moment of interia. The first mode of vibration will be with a node at the flywheel and an antinode at the free end. The higher modes will have a node and antinode at these positions, plus intermediate noeds from 2 to n interger numbers. It is seldom that modes higher than the second are of practical importance, except in the case of in-line engines of more that 8 cylinders (8.400).

For exactly similar designs, frequency in any mode is proportional to I/L (see Volume 1 chapter 11). Figure 8-28 gives data on the first-mode torsional frequency of crankshafts torsionally isolated from the external driven system and carrying a heavy flywheel at one end. In spite of large differences in detail design, this natural frequency shows the paramount influence of shaft length on the torsional frequency. This figure can be used for a rough prediction of first-order critical speed. .[/QUOTE]

I guess this might not have much to do with the conversation, but its something I'm curious about. He says I/L which I'm assuming is the natural frequency of the simplified crank should yield a good assumption of the first harmonic mode. I'm assuming the operating range doesn't even come close to approaching the second mode. So where is the second mode? Shouldn't the whole engine as a system have very predictable modes at certain rpm? What is the cause of the large increase in amplitude of vibrations that occur at lower speeds only like when you lower the idle on a dmax 100rpms and it starts rattling very bad? I'm assuming they tuned the harmonic at that speed because they knew it would never operate in that range?
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,715
86
48
White Oak, PA
That quote is talking about torsional harmonics. The crank is, after all, a torsion spring with a harmonic frequency.

The I/L term I assume is Inertia/Length.

One problem is our flywheel inertia is NOT that high compared to the crank. Maybe with the torque converter. Even so, our crank has a lot of inertia of it's own. There is a free body solution that does not ignore the flywheel. But it gets complicated.
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
I will be posting some more when able but Taylor goes on to include vibrations from around the engine itself from valve train as well. Being vibrations of lower levels we have injection pulses too and well as valve opening and closing. Not forgetting post combustion vibrations - exhaust blowdown due to gas pressure. Again, I am not sure on the magnitude of the lower frequencies however they still may contribute to the vibrations within the crankshaft and piston assemblies too.

EDIT: Sorry I shouldn't say lower frequencies I should say lower amplitudes of seperate vibration origins.
 
Last edited:

WolfLMM

Making Chips
Nov 21, 2006
4,005
25
48
38
AL
Vibration in an engine or any motor doesn't mean a damn unless the magnitude exceeds the capacity of the components. As I mentioned above, a 10 gram mis-balance on the harmonic balancer only kicks out about 22 lbs of additional load. One pound, about 1000 lbs. That compares to the 45,000 lb load that the engine crank is dealing with from just one combustion event.

The exception is if there is a harmonic in there some place. Even a 1 gram force can compound itself to destructive levels.

But harmonics are very very rpm sensitive.

Wouldn't it be great if all you had to do was plink your crank to find it's harmonic and then "tune" the crank away from the bad frequencies?

:D


Works on long boring bars:D
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,715
86
48
White Oak, PA
Of all the excitation sources, only the injection event varies its relation to the crank position. Even then, it is in step with the RPM of the crank.

So, you can work it from the approx base frequency of the crank. Then you have to decide if you are going to, or can, tweek the crank's harmonic, or go after the excitation source, or dampen the harmonic.
 

EDP

<<<< Miss The Ol Girl
Let me start by saying this is an awesome topic to discuss and long overdue.

I could be wrong, but I believe Winberg is the only company to not have a failure in a duramax. I understand they are fairly new to our market, but they are probably worth their premium if that is in fact true.

I have a broken Winberg in the engine room stock stroke internal balanced. $6k door stop. 350 miles on it. Do i think it was a bad crank or anything tied to it no, but it did motivate us to look further into this issue

1500 bucks is one reason... If that is the true fix then it would be worth it but I don't think they have enough of them out there to prove it is the fix. I'm not sure how you could, when one breaks at stock power and another holds 1000+ hp.

Im sure someone could make the same cam cheaper

There is plenty of them out there and by no means am I here to push the product if there is a simpler way to go about the issue I am all ear and ready to learn. The Billet stock fire cam at most your companies in the industry are in the $1000-$1200 area. The alter Fire blank alone jumps up $350 on the core. I have tried numerous companies to try and lower the cost but in the end I sacrificed quality and end product which I am still hearing about today from customers.

billet grinds are about that much, our billet 6.4 cams are 1200 fwiw. I dont care if they are proven time and time again i wont ever run an empire product.
Nathaniel, The person involved in your situation and its MASS confusion no longer works here. I personally offered you help above and beyond once you had your motor up and running with tuning and a few other things. If Tadd and Myself can put things in the past why can you not get past it? Like I have stated time and time again, You know the person that had 98% of the confusion tied to and that person is no longer here. No to mention the main mis happ was something tied to the company that did the blanks for us. Not Empire hence the reason that company no longer does anything for us.

IIRC, somebody checked core hardness vs surface hardness on the busted cranks?

If so, what did the find? Could it be the core hardness is too high?

You want the surface hard enough to resist wear, but you want the core mild enough to absorb shock loads, ie - has some give to it.

This is not necessarily just a mental exercise (but close). Perhaps somebody with lots of bucks and lots of time could anneal an OEM crank, then heat treat it again, then cryo it? You'd probably have to regrind it though, and depending on how much it moves, it might be trash when you're done.


We did many metal analysis and testing on all series Duramax Cranks and found the crank itself to be structurally strong enough to take what it is given in stock form in all Except Early build LMM's up to 2009 those cranks always seem to take the most weight and also have the most casting flaws per counter weight. Cryoed, Best of Billet, Stroker, and Stock Girdled and un Girdled internal balanced and external balance, all have been broken in my hands.
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
Understandable, we must relate things tied to the crankshaft besides rods and pistons.

Makes me think which type of balancer could be best for this engine. Does anyone know what style of balancer the Dmax uses from the time this engine came out into production to now? Has it changed or stayed the same?
 

Burn Down

Hotrodder
Sep 14, 2008
7,092
28
48
Boise Idaho
Let me start by saying this is an awesome topic to discuss and long overdue.



I have a broken Winberg in the engine room stock stroke internal balanced. $6k door stop. 350 miles on it. Do i think it was a bad crank or anything tied to it no, but it did motivate us to look further into this issue





There is plenty of them out there and by no means am I here to push the product if there is a simpler way to go about the issue I am all ear and ready to learn. The Billet stock fire cam at most your companies in the industry are in the $1000-$1200 area. The alter Fire blank alone jumps up $350 on the core. I have tried numerous companies to try and lower the cost but in the end I sacrificed quality and end product which I am still hearing about today from customers.


Nathaniel, The person involved in your situation and its MASS confusion no longer works here. I personally offered you help above and beyond once you had your motor up and running with tuning and a few other things. If Tadd and Myself can put things in the past why can you not get past it? Like I have stated time and time again, You know the person that had 98% of the confusion tied to and that person is no longer here. No to mention the main mis happ was something tied to the company that did the blanks for us. Not Empire hence the reason that company no longer does anything for us.




We did many metal analysis and testing on all series Duramax Cranks and found the crank itself to be structurally strong enough to take what it is given in stock form in all Except Early build LMM's up to 2009 those cranks always seem to take the most weight and also have the most casting flaws per counter weight. Cryoed, Best of Billet, Stroker, and Stock Girdled and un Girdled internal balanced and external balance, all have been broken in my hands.

I wasn't bagging on your cam... So let's discuss it. If the Alt. fire cam is the answer, what testing have you done to prove it?

Broken cranks is one reason I'm questioning even finishing my build...
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
After reading through the thread now, NOBODY mentions crankshaft main bores being misaligned at all as a possibility, as well as main-cap walk happening.

Charles Fayette Taylor ICE in Theory and Practice
Page 288 Chapter 8

Internal Engine Vibrations Other than Crankshaft Torsional
It is fully apparent to anyone listening to an internal-combustion engine in operation that the engine structure vibrates in an indefine number of modes and frequencies. The higher frequencies generate noise, which will be discussed breifly later in this chapter. In general the vibrations that cause ordinary noise do not generate objectionable stresses, because of their small amplitude.

Vibrations that result in excessive stress, and even failure, have bee found in a great many components of engine stuctures. In the author's experience these have included the following:

1. Crankshaft bending. A dangerous example is where heavy counterweights engage in a "tuning fork" mode. This type is especially prevelant in radial engines (8.494). Another type of vibration which may lead to bending failure involves flywheel wobble. On the other hand, many crankshaft failures in bending result from bearing misalignment or excessive wear or failure of main bearings.
2. Torsional vibration of auxillary-driven systems, such as superchargers, water pumps, generators, etc. Gear-driven supercharger systems are especially prone to this kind of trouble. Various types of flexible couplings have been used to reduce critical speeds below operating speeds (Volume 1 refs. 19.21,19.22)
3. Rotational vibration of pistons. This type of vibration can occur withh connecting rods that are too flexible in torsion. The cure is to use torsionally stiffer connecting rods.
4. Diaphragm-type vibration of flat, thin sections of crankcases, gear cases etc. The best way to overcome this is to use curved or dished shapes.
5. Gear-tooth-excited vibrations. With accurate geometry, this kind of vibration is more apt to be noisy than destructive. Modern methods of gear manufacture and quality control have made destructive vibration from this source infrequent.
Skipping # 6 because we have no carburetors or generators

7. Vibration of pipes and tubes, including fuel lines, exhaust pipes, etc. Proper design of mountings and supports can control this very common type of vibration.
8. High frequency vibration caused by combustion, detonation, gear teeth, etc. This is classes as noise and will be discussed later in this chapter.

I do remember someone saying they had thought a bearing could be part of the issue. Here is a piece taken from Robert N. Brady's Modern Diesel Technology pulished in 1996.

page 280
Typical operating conditions that impose bending stress on the crankshaft may be a result of misalignment of the main bearing bores, improper fitted bearings, bearing failures, a loose or broken bearing cap, unbalanced drive pulleys,mulitple drive belts that are too tight, or excessive side loads applied to either the front of rear of the shaft.....

If one were to reinforced the crankshaft, I would say weld in up in a manner that you can not only enlarge the radius BUT you will need to alter your bearings and bearing plane in order to make both work accordingly and hope the modification produces a good crankshaft improvement in reliability but keep the needed flexibility.

Are these cranks cast or forgings?
 

LBZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Jul 2, 2007
9,903
149
63
46
B.C.
After reading through the thread now, NOBODY mentions crankshaft main bores being misaligned at all as a possibility, as well as main-cap walk happening.

Charles Fayette Taylor ICE in Theory and Practice
Page 288 Chapter 8


Skipping # 6 because we have no carburetors or generators



I do remember someone saying they had thought a bearing could be part of the issue. Here is a piece taken from Robert N. Brady's Modern Diesel Technology pulished in 1996.

page 280


If one were to reinforced the crankshaft, I would say weld in up in a manner that you can not only enlarge the radius BUT you will need to alter your bearings and bearing plane in order to make both work accordingly and hope the modification produces a good crankshaft improvement in reliability but keep the needed flexibility.

Are these cranks cast or forgings?

Main cap walk and mis-allignment has been talked about in length in other threads. Bottom line is some engines are worse than others it seems in this area. Some show lots of walk, others not so much. Billet main caps, studs and girdles have all been proposed soloutions and in extreme engines, concreting the block.
 

DPC

Member
Jan 2, 2012
323
1
18
Adams, TN
Do we need to take into consideration what balancers were on the crank when broke? How many broke with ATI, Fluid, stock, etc?
 

delong_1

<< my work
Dec 5, 2008
1,282
0
0
38
Arvada, CO
ive said this numerous times but since it was asked again, mine was line honed after the block was half filled, billet main caps, girdle, etc. balanced with all parts being used in the build, ati, billet flexplate, crowers etc....

bearings 3 and 4 looked fine fwiw.
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,715
86
48
White Oak, PA
Getting back to harmonics for a moment...

They are Very RPM dependent. If it is harmonics, then you have to have the bad luck of running your engine at the magic frequency for extended periods. Which, if you think about it, isn't hard to do if you are highway cruising.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.