big three gonna lose the money...

JS2TZU

New member
Dec 3, 2008
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The CEOs make ridiculous amounts of money sitting in ther ivory towers, they give themselves outrages bonuses.

I dont know the details of the bailout are but I hope that at least one of the conditions is that the CEOs cant get anymore money or give themselves stupid azz bonuses till the pay back the money
 

ripmf666

Active member
Sep 20, 2006
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Wentzville Mo
Gm needs to tell them what there wage is going to be, if they strike hire people in behind them for the given rate, all the people out of work and these lazy idiots won't take a pay cut to realistic levels.


Thank You for calling me a Lazy Idiot that will not take a pay cut, I for one would take up to mybe 5 dollar cut but why should I do that befor ethey start cutting from the big boys pay my $29.79 a hr is alot less then <TABLE class="infobox biography vcard" style="FONT-SIZE: 95%; WIDTH: 22em; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.5em; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD class=fn style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 125%; TEXT-ALIGN: center" colSpan=2>Rick Wagoner</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll repeat 0% 0%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.2em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em; TEXT-ALIGN: left">Born</TH><TD class="" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.2em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.3em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em">George Richard Wagoner, Jr.
February 9, 1953 (1953-02-09) (age 55)
Wilmington, Delaware, USA
</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll repeat 0% 0%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.2em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em; TEXT-ALIGN: left">Nationality</TH><TD class=category style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.2em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.3em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em">American</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll repeat 0% 0%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.2em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em; TEXT-ALIGN: left">Alma mater</TH><TD class="" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.2em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.3em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em">Harvard Business School
Duke University
</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll repeat 0% 0%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.2em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em; TEXT-ALIGN: left">Occupation</TH><TD class=role style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.2em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.3em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em">Businessman
Chairman & CEO of
General Motors (2000-)
</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll repeat 0% 0%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.2em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em; TEXT-ALIGN: left">Salary</TH><TD class="" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0.2em; PADDING-LEFT: 0.2em; FONT-SIZE: 90%; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.2em; VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle; LINE-HEIGHT: 1.3em; PADDING-TOP: 0.2em">US$ 1,558,330 (2007)
Total: US$ 14,415,900 (2007)<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-0>[1]</SUP>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Heres the link to read and this came from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Wagoner
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/officerProfile?symbol=GM.N&officerId=55982

For what he made I do not think the 75k I grossed in 2007 hurts GM as much as the $14,415,900 that he made with all his bonuses hell I would take the $1,558,330 and invisted and retire.
 

NelsonDiesel

Formerly StewieTuned
May 8, 2008
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www.NelsonDiesel.com
i think if there is to be a paycut it needs to be across the board to be fair.... It should be a percentage based deal, including bonuses.... guess we'll see.

it looks to be the union has created some overpaid employees but what can ya do?

Less cost to manufacture the vehicles mean less cost to the consumer-hopefully. $14,000,000 is just stupid.

at simpson we lost all bonuses before any of this even happened cause the owner is a greedy bastard. We were then one of the very first to take 10% pay cuts after that when the business "started" to slow down.

There is a point where a business is struggling and paycuts are needed to stay afloat... and times when people just look greedy. this situation isn't a greedy thing... i don't think....
 

s3gulit

Teh Farmer
Dec 6, 2008
173
0
0
Illinois
I agree, the UAW needs to be disbanded with this $14billion they were LUCKY to get. UAW hasn't done one bit of good since probably the 70's-early 80's for safety or anything else. Disband them and tell the employees "hey you'll make $22/hr and thats final" or we'll hire scrubs in your place.

No reason anyone who presses a button that bolts the wheel, the trunk lid, etc down deserves more than $20/hr when all their doing is just standing there going "click, click, click".

I agree rediculous bonus checks need to stop for higher ups, but theres a reason they get paid more and thats because they ahve to steer the company in the right way and develop products the public would be willing to purchase.
 

ripmf666

Active member
Sep 20, 2006
15,123
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Wentzville Mo
I agree, the UAW needs to be disbanded with this $14billion they were LUCKY to get. UAW hasn't done one bit of good since probably the 70's-early 80's for safety or anything else. Disband them and tell the employees "hey you'll make $22/hr and thats final" or we'll hire scrubs in your place.

No reason anyone who presses a button that bolts the wheel, the trunk lid, etc down deserves more than $20/hr when all their doing is just standing there going "click, click, click".

I agree rediculous bonus checks need to stop for higher ups, but theres a reason they get paid more and thats because they ahve to steer the company in the right way and develop products the public would be willing to purchase.


Guess you have never been inside of a car plant there's more then stand and click click,The trunk lid does not get fitting without force,The wheel and tire does not just lift its self on all night long.Most of the time when they bring in summer help for vaction time and its 120 in the plant you might have 15 people out of 60 that do not leave after 4 days, 2 days in class that does have a/c and the other 2 days out on the floor working with another work learning the job and they do not come back it was to hot or to hard of a job and they made around 16 to 18 a hr some that did stay around lol you had to go back and replair there screw ups they did not care about anything they did just think for every part they screwed up it added 60 to 200 dollars to the cost of that car or truck.
 

05smoker

I'm officially done!
Mar 30, 2007
2,379
0
36
Lebanon, OH
I agree, the UAW needs to be disbanded with this $14billion they were LUCKY to get. UAW hasn't done one bit of good since probably the 70's-early 80's for safety or anything else. Disband them and tell the employees "hey you'll make $22/hr and thats final" or we'll hire scrubs in your place.

No reason anyone who presses a button that bolts the wheel, the trunk lid, etc down deserves more than $20/hr when all their doing is just standing there going "click, click, click".

I agree rediculous bonus checks need to stop for higher ups, but theres a reason they get paid more and thats because they ahve to steer the company in the right way and develop products the public would be willing to purchase.

They get paid huge bonuses to steer the company in the right direction. So the 14 mil he got was for steering the company into bankruptcy is justified? I see what you are trying to say but bonuses are paid based on performance. If the company performs, the CEO should be rewarded. In times like this, the CEO shouldn't get squat.

My dad spent 30 years at GM. I think they need across the board cuts to stay comeptitive, that means CEOs and laborers alike. Also need to thin the product line.
 

bigbird

Member
Sep 18, 2006
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16
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Its not that simple buddy, lazy idiots? Let me guess you think all union members are lazy idiots, maybe you should take some time to read the rest of the thread. So please tell me in all of your knowledge, whats realistic to you? What do you do for a living? How much do you get paid?

Do you even know what gm workers get paid? I bet you didnt know it is over .20 cents an hour less than Toyota workers. Ignorance is a bliss. Its the retirement that is killing them, not the wages. But you cant just take retirement away from people, its not right. Like someone said earlier in this thread, how about we take policemen, firefighters, and all other government workers retirement away, and lower their wages since the government is struggling? Are you ok with that?



I saw a report that said it costs toyota $43/hr. to build a vehicle and cost GM around 70. the difference can't all be retirement funds can it? whether it is right or wrong to force GM to cut wages and get rid of pensions, I think that is the only way they can survive long term.
 

bigbird

Member
Sep 18, 2006
837
0
16
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
The CEOs make ridiculous amounts of money sitting in ther ivory towers, they give themselves outrages bonuses.

I dont know the details of the bailout are but I hope that at least one of the conditions is that the CEOs cant get anymore money or give themselves stupid azz bonuses till the pay back the money


I believe all 3 are working in 09 for $1. no bonuses and no options. boggles my mind how these ceo's, in particular the banks get paid 100's of millions of dollars to run companies into the ground. i suspect everyone on this board could do that for half the price.
 

Rhall

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Aug 12, 2006
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I saw a report that said it costs toyota $43/hr. to build a vehicle and cost GM around 70. the difference can't all be retirement funds can it? whether it is right or wrong to force GM to cut wages and get rid of pensions, I think that is the only way they can survive long term.

Yes it is, look at the amount of retired employees gm has, compared to toyota. Think of how long gm has had plants here compared to toyota. Toyota doesnt have a fraction.

Btw if everyone reads through this whole thread, im not saying im against paycuts, im saying they need to start at the top, and work their way down, not just attack the UAW.
 

Rhall

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Aug 12, 2006
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I agree, the UAW needs to be disbanded with this $14billion they were LUCKY to get. UAW hasn't done one bit of good since probably the 70's-early 80's for safety or anything else. Disband them and tell the employees "hey you'll make $22/hr and thats final" or we'll hire scrubs in your place.

No reason anyone who presses a button that bolts the wheel, the trunk lid, etc down deserves more than $20/hr when all their doing is just standing there going "click, click, click".

I agree rediculous bonus checks need to stop for higher ups, but theres a reason they get paid more and thats because they ahve to steer the company in the right way and develop products the public would be willing to purchase.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:Hahaha, thats the funniest post ive seen in here so far. The higher ups steer the company in the right direction? Are you joking? And sorry but the higher ups and the ceo DO NOT develop products. Thats what the engineers do.
 

Redbone

but this one goes to 11
May 1, 2008
261
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Indy, IN
Let's take a look at the numbers here. This is about wages only, we'll not include benefits.

We'll use Henry's figures for example. They should fairly representative of the average UAW member. We'll use $30 per hour for the rate (averaging straight time, OT, higher paid skilled trades, etc). Let's assume 2500 hours per year. That puts the average GM UAW employee at $75K.

Like Henry said, he'd accept a around a 15% cut ($4.50 per hour). If that is applied to all members, each one would take approximately $11,750 pay cut per year, leaving $63,750 for take home gross.

GM's UAW membership is around 80,000. Applying that cut to each member yields a savings to GM of $940,000,000 per year. The obnoxious salaries that the execs are taking home (they obviously need to take a huge hit as well) are still a drop in the bucket to potential labor savings when taken as a whole.

What this doesn't show is the savings realized from reduced withholding matching funds GM has to pay (FICA, etc.). Further trimming from benefits will add up also, but I'm not up to speed on those particulars, so I'm not sure what can be gained there.

So, wage concessions alone could save up to $1,000,000,000 of cash flow per year for GM.

But wages etc. are only part of the issue. There are tons of issues in the contract that could be reasonably renegotiated that could yield similar savings.

We'll use skilled trades for example. Say a plant has to replace a motor and pump assembly on a machine. This would typically be handled by calling an electrician to disconnect the motor, a pipefitter to disconnect the inlet and outlet pipes, and a millwright to remove and replace the assembly. Same group on reassembly. This could be performed by one person if the trades were consolidated into a "General Maintenance" Department where everyone was trained in all aspects of plant maintenance. Obviously there would be need for specialists in certain areas, but you get the idea. This is generally how the rest of industry does things.

UAW insistence on union only contractors as another option for savings. Non-member temporary line workers have been accepted, so why not equal emphasis on outside contractors? When contracting out becomes necessary for a project, opening bidding up to all qualified companies could net serious savings.

We have worked non-union in many GM facilities, but GM also paid in house skilled trades while we were there. One example, we were on a project which we had 4 guys on site for 12 hours. To get approval for us to work on site, they paid a millwright crew (I think 5 guys, not sure) for 7 days, 12 hours per day. This isn't an attack on the rank and file membership or trades guys, 99% of the time they are awesome to work with and around. Just an example of reasonable, common sense concessions that could be made for GM and the UAW to survive and thrive.

Other programs like job banks, etc have been discussed to death. I believe UAW management has successfully, as of late, been addressing absenteeism issues, ghost clocking, etc. There has been stepped up efforts for self policing and that must continue.

I'll not get into the management issues here. It's harder to quantify numbers form the mistakes of doofus's.

I think with removing the emotional issues of negotiating, common sense cuts, in-plant lifestyle changes, and business practice, GM could again be a viable entity. There is to much good potential in place already with talent and product line to throw it away.

Besides, I never want to have to resort to driving a Super Duty.;)
 

Rhall

Old Skooler
Aug 12, 2006
2,241
0
36
41
Texas Y'all
Let's take a look at the numbers here. This is about wages only, we'll not include benefits.

We'll use Henry's figures for example. They should fairly representative of the average UAW member. We'll use $30 per hour for the rate (averaging straight time, OT, higher paid skilled trades, etc). Let's assume 2500 hours per year. That puts the average GM UAW employee at $75K.

Like Henry said, he'd accept a around a 15% cut ($4.50 per hour). If that is applied to all members, each one would take approximately $11,750 pay cut per year, leaving $63,750 for take home gross.

GM's UAW membership is around 80,000. Applying that cut to each member yields a savings to GM of $940,000,000 per year. The obnoxious salaries that the execs are taking home (they obviously need to take a huge hit as well) are still a drop in the bucket to potential labor savings when taken as a whole.

What this doesn't show is the savings realized from reduced withholding matching funds GM has to pay (FICA, etc.). Further trimming from benefits will add up also, but I'm not up to speed on those particulars, so I'm not sure what can be gained there.

So, wage concessions alone could save up to $1,000,000,000 of cash flow per year for GM.

But wages etc. are only part of the issue. There are tons of issues in the contract that could be reasonably renegotiated that could yield similar savings.

We'll use skilled trades for example. Say a plant has to replace a motor and pump assembly on a machine. This would typically be handled by calling an electrician to disconnect the motor, a pipefitter to disconnect the inlet and outlet pipes, and a millwright to remove and replace the assembly. Same group on reassembly. This could be performed by one person if the trades were consolidated into a "General Maintenance" Department where everyone was trained in all aspects of plant maintenance. Obviously there would be need for specialists in certain areas, but you get the idea. This is generally how the rest of industry does things.

UAW insistence on union only contractors as another option for savings. Non-member temporary line workers have been accepted, so why not equal emphasis on outside contractors? When contracting out becomes necessary for a project, opening bidding up to all qualified companies could net serious savings.

We have worked non-union in many GM facilities, but GM also paid in house skilled trades while we were there. One example, we were on a project which we had 4 guys on site for 12 hours. To get approval for us to work on site, they paid a millwright crew (I think 5 guys, not sure) for 7 days, 12 hours per day. This isn't an attack on the rank and file membership or trades guys, 99% of the time they are awesome to work with and around. Just an example of reasonable, common sense concessions that could be made for GM and the UAW to survive and thrive.

Other programs like job banks, etc have been discussed to death. I believe UAW management has successfully, as of late, been addressing absenteeism issues, ghost clocking, etc. There has been stepped up efforts for self policing and that must continue.

I'll not get into the management issues here. It's harder to quantify numbers form the mistakes of doofus's.

I think with removing the emotional issues of negotiating, common sense cuts, in-plant lifestyle changes, and business practice, GM could again be a viable entity. There is to much good potential in place already with talent and product line to throw it away.

Besides, I never want to have to resort to driving a Super Duty.;)

You have good points, i think their willing to take paycuts, they just want to see something out of the managements too, to make it fair.

As far as contracting stuff out, thats not always the best, theres a few places here in KC Mo thats contracted their elevator work out to non-union contractors. Their lack of training and knowledge on the equipment led them to trouble shooting for a week, until they told them they couldnt fix it, guess who got called? And guess what else? It actually costed them more, than the original bid that the union contractor gave them, which came back to kick them in thier ass. Me personally i would never want non-union contractors working on my elevators, your lives are in their hands, and i dont think thats a good place to try and save money. JMO
 

McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
11,249
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64
Norco CA
www.mcratracing.com
I'd be surprised if "skilled labor" wages are much of an issue. Normally the problem with union contracts is that the unskilled labor rate is skewed outside market prices, not the skilled labor.

An example would be Northrup vs. McDonnell Douglas back in the 80's. Northrup was non-union, yet paid the "skilled trades" at least as much, if not more, than Douglas did. Why? Because skilled trades are in higher demand, and wages are dictated by competition. But the janitors and other unskilled jobs were paid about 75% of skilled trades at Douglas per contract, yet Northrup only paid market rate, which was about 33% of skilled labor.

Why? There are far fewer skilled workers in a factory than unskilled, so when contract negotiations come up, the unskilled workers hold more weight.

I wonder if a journeyman machinist at Toyota makes less than one does at GM. When I was a machinist, I commanded top $ even at small shops, since I could do more work per hour and get it done the first time than a lessor skilled worker could. Big shops drew guys like me for the better benefits and better working conditions, but toolboxes have wheels for a reason. If wages went up, and the shop wouldn't match rates, I was down the road.
 

JS2TZU

New member
Dec 3, 2008
287
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Kauai Hawaii
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:Hahaha, thats the funniest post ive seen in here so far. The higher ups steer the company in the right direction? Are you joking? And sorry but the higher ups and the ceo DO NOT develop products. Thats what the engineers do.


I agree a 100%
IMO this is where all the problems began. The CEOs take and take when the common dudes give and give, pay cuts shoud go from the top to the bottom, I dont think that the workers need to take a pay cut after all they have been doing there jobs, Mananegment is is where the problems are so they have to be the first to go. I bet if they were to promote more factory workers that have been working in the trenches that actually know whats going on into some of these high powered positions THEY could turn things around.
 

McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
11,249
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Norco CA
www.mcratracing.com
Not sure it's that simple.

CEO's of large corps aren't hired at random. There are thousands of qualified individuals for the job, but they want to pick the one with the best track record of improving profits. When they can't get it done, they are fired. Happens all the time. Anyone good at it is already working, so you must "steal" one from another company.

Limit CEO pay might actually just cause more losses and lay-offs.

I believe GM and Ford CEO's agreed to work for $1 next year already.
 

Redbone

but this one goes to 11
May 1, 2008
261
0
0
Indy, IN
You have good points, i think their willing to take paycuts, they just want to see something out of the managements too, to make it fair.
Absolutley. They share the blame, so they've gotta share the pain.

As far as contracting stuff out, thats not always the best, theres a few places here in KC Mo thats contracted their elevator work out to non-union contractors. Their lack of training and knowledge on the equipment led them to trouble shooting for a week, until they told them they couldnt fix it, guess who got called? And guess what else? It actually costed them more, than the original bid that the union contractor gave them, which came back to kick them in thier ass. Me personally i would never want non-union contractors working on my elevators, your lives are in their hands, and i dont think thats a good place to try and save money. JMO
Really don't want to get into the union vs. non-union thing right now. That really gets back to the training and policies provided by the employer. That's why I said provide options for all "qualified" contractors. Regardless of affiliation. (We were called on the project in my example to replace a signatory contractor.)

Good topic for discussion later though.;)

I'd be surprised if "skilled labor" wages are much of an issue. Normally the problem with union contracts is that the unskilled labor rate is skewed outside market prices, not the skilled labor.

An example would be Northrup vs. McDonnell Douglas back in the 80's. Northrup was non-union, yet paid the "skilled trades" at least as much, if not more, than Douglas did. Why? Because skilled trades are in higher demand, and wages are dictated by competition. But the janitors and other unskilled jobs were paid about 75% of skilled trades at Douglas per contract, yet Northrup only paid market rate, which was about 33% of skilled labor.

Why? There are far fewer skilled workers in a factory than unskilled, so when contract negotiations come up, the unskilled workers hold more weight.

I wonder if a journeyman machinist at Toyota makes less than one does at GM. When I was a machinist, I commanded top $ even at small shops, since I could do more work per hour and get it done the first time than a lessor skilled worker could. Big shops drew guys like me for the better benefits and better working conditions, but toolboxes have wheels for a reason. If wages went up, and the shop wouldn't match rates, I was down the road.
I probably need to clarify that I was referring to the support skilled trades: electricians, pipe fitters, millwrights, etc. Speaking from an accounting stand point these positions are more overhead and burden costs, not cost directly related to production. I wasn't referring to the production skilled trades: machinists, etc.

I agree Pat that the skilled trades wage rates are not an issue. It's the policies that are practiced. In the example I gave, a mundane pump change, this could have been accomplished with less cost without mandatory participation from three separate trades groups (again, overhead and burden mandated by the current contract and policy.)