Bonneville Engine:

[McRat]

We are starting to build a "Bonneville" engine for Casper's record attempt in 2009.

So this will be the diary of the engine.

First off, what is a Bonneville engine, and why does it have to be different? Well, we know now that a conventional drag/sled engine build will not survive land speed racing. We found that out the hard way when the engine and turbocharger melted on the backup record run.

A dyno pull lasts 6-8 seconds, a drag race will last 9-11 seconds, a sled pull might last 20 seconds. But a successful Bonneville run can last 90 seconds, most of it at high RPM. Cooling is more critical. Piston, head, and block temperatures cannot be allowed to keep climbing like we currently do. They must stabilize at a survivable level. And it must survive at least 2 passes minimum, or you are wasting your time. Things you can get away with, like high EGT's or oil temperature, for a short time will melt the engine if allowed enough time.

To achieve the speed we want (200+ mph) will take 900rwhp sustained for up to 90 seconds. This is something I do not believe has ever been done with a Duramax.

Our engine is starting out as a used LBZ engine, and currently resides at SoCalDiesel in the care of Guy Tripp. I like using used engines if possible to reduce the chance of a manufacturer's defect popping up. We are sending out the injectors to have them honed out for high RPM operation and precision matched. Your weakest cylinder will stop you, even if the other 7 are great. So getting all 8 cylinders on the same page is critical. A perfect engine is one that blows up all cylinders at the same time. We just blew up 2 cylinders in the last engine, but in all fairness, the other six were on death's doorstep ringing the bell like they had to use the bathroom.

Next will be careful disassembly, cleaning, and inspection, to insure we are starting with a good foundation.

I will continue to add to this thread until the engine is complete, tested, and run at Bonneville.

 

[malibu795]

good luck

 

[03 D-max]

200+ mph with a 2500HD pickup is just awesome

 

[Leadfoot]

Good Luck and looking forward to it!

 

[ChevyDieselLLY]

should make for a very good thread. best of luck.

 

[RPM Motorsports]

Hmmm, Maybee a little lesss stroke for the High RPM's. Direct port water through the freeze plug holes with an electric pump and an ice box of some sort. What do the Marine exhaust manifolds look like, Water cooled? FFT!

 

[McRat]

Hopefully this effort will assist others who want to build Dmaxes that give good service life in competition. To be honest, the fatality rate on built engines is very high. We increased the power at the expense of lifespan. What we learn, good and bad, should get us some more insight as to how to make one live.

 

[McRat]

I will be running a stroker engine so we won't need as much boost to make power. There is no replacement for displacement. If I could get a 1200 cubic inch engine like the AA/DT Ford truck ran (V12 Detroit Diesel), it would be much easier.

 

[mytmousemalibu]

Wonder if a fuel chiller would be of any significance? I used to work for Patterson Racing here in kansas, a big leader in winning hi-perf race engines, does David Rampy ring a bell? I remember a hush-hush intake manifold he had on his altered at one point. It was a conventional Plenum/tunnel ram sheetmetal intake exept it had an aluminum sheetmetal "enclosure" built around the runners and the plenum. Well this void space right before a run got charged with icy cold CO2 to chill the intake and hence air charge. He only had it for a short time IIRC, NHRA prolly didn't like that idea??? But this could be employed on your IC plumbing and would isolate them from radiant heat transfer well. Id consider a water to air IC too if your not already Pat :hug:

 

[McRat]

I think getting rid of heat will be the #1 priority. Air, water, fuel, oil, trans, diff, turbo, etc. We know these engines can handle 1000hp, but we also know heat kills them.

So the bed will be converted into a huge cooling tank.

 

[LASTMIKE]

not that this has anything to do with a competion engine, but is very useful information to know.
View attachment Injection Timing Effects.doc



View attachment FORMULA FOR CALCULATING HORSEPOWER.doc

 

[McRat]

not that this has anything to do with a competion engine, but is very useful information to know.
View attachment 6293

View attachment 6294

View attachment 6295

Yes, that does apply to competition diesel engines. The only downside to advancing timing is more NOx emissions, which, uh, well, no comment.

 

[LASTMIKE]

cool i hope i helped in some way.

 

[mde]

We are starting to build a "Bonneville" engine for Casper's record attempt in 2009.

So this will be the diary of the engine.

First off, what is a Bonneville engine, and why does it have to be different? Well, we know now that a conventional drag/sled engine build will not survive land speed racing. We found that out the hard way when the engine and turbocharger melted on the backup record run.

A dyno pull lasts 6-8 seconds, a drag race will last 9-11 seconds, a sled pull might last 20 seconds. But a successful Bonneville run can last 90 seconds, most of it at high RPM. Cooling is more critical. Piston, head, and block temperatures cannot be allowed to keep climbing like we currently do. They must stabilize at a survivable level. And it must survive at least 2 passes minimum, or you are wasting your time. Things you can get away with, like high EGT's or oil temperature, for a short time will melt the engine if allowed enough time.

To achieve the speed we want (200+ mph) will take 900rwhp sustained for up to 90 seconds. This is something I do not believe has ever been done with a Duramax.

Our engine is starting out as a used LBZ engine, and currently resides at SoCalDiesel in the care of Guy Tripp. I like using used engines if possible to reduce the chance of a manufacturer's defect popping up. We are sending out the injectors to have them honed out for high RPM operation and precision matched. Your weakest cylinder will stop you, even if the other 7 are great. So getting all 8 cylinders on the same page is critical. A perfect engine is one that blows up all cylinders at the same time. We just blew up 2 cylinders in the last engine, but in all fairness, the other six were on death's doorstep ringing the bell like they had to use the bathroom.

Next will be careful disassembly, cleaning, and inspection, to insure we are starting with a good foundation.

I will continue to add to this thread until the engine is complete, tested, and run at Bonneville.

Pat, I don't wanna hijack your thread, but we had on our Bonneville Engine 1250 HP and 2250 lbs pounds Tq for over 90 Sec ... and we figured out more problems and will be solved on the new 2 Bonneville engines for better cooling on the heads also in the block ... good luck with your build

Volker

 

[McRat]

Pat, I don't wanna hijack your thread, but we had on our Bonneville Engine 1250 HP and 2250 lbs pounds Tq for over 90 Sec ... and we figured out more problems and will be solved on the new 2 Bonneville engines for better cooling on the heads also in the block ... good luck with your build

Volker

All of us are impressed with the work you folk did with the Goodfellow car.:hello:

But actually, I think your engine did the same thing mine did: Blow up.

I won't debate engine output, duration, or what failed, since it's not public knowledge. Everyone could learn from the Goodfellow build, but it's understandable to keep it under wraps. We have posted pictures of what failed and noted how. Water temp never went past 225, 2 OEM LLY pistons seized in the bores at ~4100rpm, then the rods pulled the pistons apart at the wrist pins. The rods then ventilated the sleeves and the engine was shut down at about 175mph.

There is zero personal advantage of me posting what I do with our engine builds. I don't sell engines or engine parts. That's not true for everyone. Actually, I've been trashed on the internet for posting our failures. By someone in your pits.

You are more than welcome to post technical information about Goodfellow build. But keep hype and advertising out of it, that's what magazines are for.

 

[Killerbee]

For a 90 second run, there is not enough time for bulk oil and water temps to run into an unhealthy area. Longevity is going to reduce to EGT (true cylinder surface temps) and over-advance containment. The latter has got to be addressed. The heat soak of the aftercooling circuit is beyond words. You have to see it to believe it. In 10-15 secs, plenum air goes north real fast, and quickly goes over 300 F. A water injection (internal coolant) schedule can help with this possibly also, though rules may be a factor.

Consider relocating the IAT sensor to post-CAC, and build an "IAT timing" retard schedule into your timing tables. EFILive makes this possible already, as I have experimented with it.

I'd really like to see you succeed.

 

[McRat]

For a 90 second run, there is not enough time for bulk oil and water temps to run into an unhealthy area. Longevity is going to reduce to EGT (true cylinder surface temps) and over-advance containment. The latter has got to be addressed. The heat soak of the aftercooling circuit is beyond words. You have to see it to believe it. In 10-15 secs, plenum air goes north real fast, and quickly goes over 300 F. A water injection (internal coolant) schedule can help with this possibly also, though rules may be a factor.

Consider relocating the IAT sensor to post-CAC, and build an "IAT timing" retard schedule into your timing tables. EFILive makes this possible already, as I have experimented with it.

I'd really like to see you succeed.

You can overheat both the water and oil in less than 30 seconds with a 500rwhp. Just load in any 500rwhp tune into your truck on the dyno and hold it there. 30 seconds is much longer than most people think.

Yes, we are allowed to and do run pure water injection.

If you retard the timing, the power falls. Timing did not kill our engine.

Air is a very crappy way of cooling/heating things, and the air in our engines actually heats the piston up, not cool it down. Problem is, the hotter the air is, the better it ignites the fuel and the more power you make. So cooling the piston by other means is important.

Yes, I was playing with IAT tables before the Dmax engine was released on LS1 cars, and it was one of the first things I looked at when I started playing with Dmaxes. You can make it do Stupid Pet Tricks.

 

[Killerbee]

Not to argue, and with respect, there is no 150 mph ambient cooling on a dyno. By your own statement, you didn't overheat, or maybe I misunderstood. I understand what you are saying, I've overheated a vehicle in 60 seconds, on a road. The heat soak offload from the CAC is what causes it, it firestorms the radiator. I don't want to assume anything, is the AC condenser removed for these runs?

FWIW, until a year ago, the (efilive) IAT timing table did not function, it was dead. Timing cannot be expected to stay optimum with such dynamic changes to the combustion environment, inherited by huge power tunes. There is lots of empirical data backing up the need to dynamically adjust timing based on these thermal factors. The LLY team just ignored all that. It must also be why bosch required a second IAT sensor near the plenum.

Timing never starts out over-advanced.

Overadvanced timing will also heat up the coolant faster, as the coolant is exposed to peak temperatures for a longer period of time. As is all the cylinder components. I'm not second guessing your power requirements, you've forgetten more than I know. But one idea to see how this happens is to get Nick to set up a 30 second dyno run monitoring CP. The location of peak pressure will steadily move back toward TDC, a non-optimum location. As it does, pressure (and therefore) temperature go up. So, in that respect, if temperature is your concern, timing kills motors. JMO. Or more on point, lack of timing compensation for thermal changes, kills motors more quickly (time). Like you say, the duration gives heat a chance to conduct, and injure in ways that short duration heat never does.

Anyway, this is not what you wanted to hear I guess, and probably not what this thread is about. I'll watch and hope for success. If you would like to try some induction misting with the I-FOG, I would be happy to help. The air is plenty dry. That's not helping things much.

 

[McRat]

Not to argue, and with respect, there is no 150 mph ambient cooling on a dyno. By your own statement, you didn't overheat, or maybe I misunderstood. I understand what you are saying, I've overheated a vehicle in 60 seconds, on a road. The heat soak offload from the CAC is what causes it, it firestorms the radiator. I don't want to assume anything, is the AC condenser removed for these runs?

FWIW, until a year ago, the (efilive) IAT timing table did not function, it was dead. Timing cannot be expected to stay optimum with such dynamic changes to the combustion environment, inherited by huge power tunes. There is lots of empirical data backing up the need to dynamically adjust timing based on these thermal factors. The LLY team just ignored all that. It must also be why bosch required a second IAT sensor near the plenum.

Timing never starts out over-advanced.

Overadvanced timing will also heat up the coolant faster, as the coolant is exposed to peak temperatures for a longer period of time. As is all the cylinder components. I'm not second guessing your power requirements, you've forgetten more than I know. But one idea to see how this happens is to get Nick to set up a 30 second dyno run monitoring CP. The location of peak pressure will steadily move back toward TDC, a non-optimum location. As it does, pressure (and therefore) temperature go up. So, in that respect, if temperature is your concern, timing kills motors. JMO. Or more on point, lack of timing compensation for thermal changes, kills motors more quickly (time). Like you say, the duration gives heat a chance to conduct, and injure in ways that short duration heat never does.

Anyway, this is not what you wanted to hear I guess, and probably not what this thread is about. I'll watch and hope for success. If you would like to try some induction misting with the I-FOG, I would be happy to help. The air is plenty dry. That's not helping things much.

Casper does not have A/C anymore. Nor does IAT advance or retard function any longer. Not sure it ever did. Timing matches exactly what I have programmed into the main timing table, which is "lots".

For Bonneville next year, there will not be an intercooler blocking the radiator since I will switch over to a water/ice bath intercooler to get more air into the cylinders. We hope to abandon water injection entirely since it reduces intake charge density, but first I have to see how cool I can get the air without it, then do the math.

But none of this has to do with the engine build.

 

[slowlmm]

pat wht size pistons are you going with std 20 40 60 over to go with the stroker kit. will you guys be doing a cam as well ?