Well the time has come...

[JoshH]

I dont know. These "made-out-of-money" guys (you know them..they have a money tree in the backyard ) have been giving me a real beating over wanting to run LBZ rods.

$4-5K wont get you very far, as Im finding out. One damn thing leads to another, to another, to another....you get the point. Not every build can be a high-dollar, 1000-hp ready monster and frankly Im already disgusted and frustrated. Ah well, after I get my taxes done, I'll see where I really stand.

As for your build, Id ask Trent (actually...beg him) to completely outline EXACTLY what he did to build his motor (with rods) for around $5K-6K. He out-lowbucked everyone Ive ever heard of by thinking things out beforehand. Flat-out amazing.

Trent got his done so cheaply because he had access to the tools to do a lot of machine work himself. He also reused a lot of parts and quite simply didn't do a few things that most do (such as balancing the rotating assembly). That isn't to say he did anything wrong, but if it were a street truck, I'm sure he wouldn't have done it the same way.

Here's a quick breakdown on what I spent on my motor. I don't have the receipts in front of me, and I don't remember exactly. These are just rough estimates, but should be close.

Rods-$2700
Pistons-$2300
Main studs-$250
Head studs-$600
Balancer-$500
Cam-$950
Valve springs etc.-$650
Head gaskets-$200
Bearings-$250
Miscellaneous seals/gaskets/o-rings/bolts/RTV-$400
Machine work-$1000 (includes bore and hone the cylinders, cleanup decking the block, line hone for the main studs, balancing the rotating assembly, keying the crank, inspecting the cylinder heads)

Grand total-$9800

That is a lot more than you will need to spend. Here's what I would consider a requirement for any build.

Rods-$2700
Pistons-if your stock LB7/LLY pistons are in good shape, you could probably find someone to machine them for you for a few hundred (maybe $50 a piece)
Head studs-$600
Head gaskets-$200
Bearings-$250
Miscellaneous seals/gaskets/o-rings/bolts/RTV-$400
Machine work-$600 (balancing the rotating assembly, keying the crank and cam)

Grand total-$5150

I don't think I forgot anything.

 

[KEVINL]

Rods-$2700
Pistons-if your stock LB7/LLY pistons are in good shape, you could probably find someone to machine them for you for a few hundred (maybe $50 a piece)
Head studs-$600
Head gaskets-$200
Bearings-$250
Miscellaneous seals/gaskets/o-rings/bolts/RTV-$400
Machine work-$600 (balancing the rotating assembly, keying the crank and cam)

Grand total-$5150

I don't think I forgot anything.

This is what I would be looking to do I already have the head studs

Do you just need a hone with stock pistons? mine have 180k so I might try to find some with less miles and less heat poured on them

 

[JoshH]

This is what I would be looking to do I already have the head studs

Do you just need a hone with stock pistons? mine have 180k so I might try to find some with less miles and less heat poured on them

Surprisingly, the Duramax bores stay looking really nice for a while. I had the heads off of an 01 with 300k and you could still clearly see the cross hatching in the cylinders. If you are keeping the stock pistons and rings, I don't think you would have to do anything to the block if you were really trying to save money.

 

[JD4440]

I wouldn't say it is a necessity, but it is nice if you have the extra money.

Is Guys a rebadged ATI or something specific to Guy? I had thought about going ahead and getting one.

 

[JoshH]

Is Guys a rebadged ATI or something specific to Guy? I had thought about going ahead and getting one.

I'm not sure on that. You'd probably have to talk to Guy.

 

[bullfrogjohnson]

You can do a mild built motor with 5-6k easy. You just have to know where to shop.

 

[SmokeShow]

Tom I did raz u a little but I assure u I'm far from money bags! Hell, why do u think I've had a donor truck for two years & still don't have something together? Cause the $ ain't there but I'll be damn if I do it half assed only to have to tear back into it again later because of that. I'll just exercise patience & buy what I can when I can & it'll all come together before long.

My situation is a little different though in a cpl respects. 1) it's not my DD that's busted but rather the toy (though my DD being busted has taken plenty of $ away from my build ) and 2) I know for sure that my ultimate goal is beyond even the upper limit of any stock rod so it's a more clear choice. I don't have a choice if I don't want to risk blowing a rod through the block!

If guys really are getting engines together with rods for $5-6k, that really reasonable IMO considering the total price of a built trans ($3500++) & lift pumps & exhaust and so one that's already willingly been outlayed for the truck without much grief.

Sry if I'm a little OT. Again, sorry bout your mishap & good luck rebuilding.

 

[pepperidge]

thanks for the responses and Please keep on discussing it...this thread is good for everyone:thumb:

 

[pepperidge]

That is a lot more than you will need to spend. Here's what I would consider a requirement for any build.

Rods-$2700
Pistons-if your stock LB7/LLY pistons are in good shape, you could probably find someone to machine them for you for a few hundred (maybe $50 a piece)
Head studs-$600
Head gaskets-$200
Bearings-$250
Miscellaneous seals/gaskets/o-rings/bolts/RTV-$400
Machine work-$600 (balancing the rotating assembly, keying the crank and cam)

Grand total-$5150

I don't think I forgot anything.

this list looks good but shouldn't I add de lipping the pistons and coating them?

whats the cost of that?

this is looking promising

 

[SmokeShow]

this list looks good but shouldn't I add de lipping the pistons and coating them?

whats the cost of that?

this is looking promising

that's what line item 2 is. I know Johnboy can help you out with that for a really fair price! I don't know for sure, but I'd venture to say that a good majority of folks skip the option of coating the pistons. I don't know of anyone with coated pistons but I'm sure some still may do it?? It seems to still be pretty popular practice for the Dodge guys but not so much with the Dmax crowd. No idea why?

 

[JoshH]

that's what line item 2 is. I know Johnboy can help you out with that for a really fair price! I don't know for sure, but I'd venture to say that a good majority of folks skip the option of coating the pistons. I don't know of anyone with coated pistons but I'm sure some still may do it?? It seems to still be pretty popular practice for the Dodge guys but not so much with the Dmax crowd. No idea why?

Guy coats the pistons he sells. Mine came with a heat resistant coating on the top and a black lubricative coating on the skirts.

 

[custom8726]

Piston Coating IIRC is $400.00, I chose to not have mine coated, but if it had been more convient and more importantly a quicker turn around time, I probably would have done it. After all $400 bucks is peanuts in comparison to what every thing else cost to build these things Hell, I paid more then that for a set of rings

 

[SteveFord]

Michael Tomac is one

And his truck is making huge power. I know he did and so did Rick S. but he also was if I remember at or above 800rwhp. I look at Russ's truck, Rob Coddens truck, my buddy Randy's truck and alot of others making a good amount of power even on n2o on daily drivers and they still have no signs of bent rods on lbz/lmms. I haven't seen but a few that have bent.

 

[GMC_2002_Dmax]

I am going to throw this out there one last time.

RODS !!!

If you are doing a build the rods are the weak link, period.

Once you have aftermarket rods you can go with twins, dual fuelers, etc.

To have an engine apart, and push it over 500HP and not go with rods in my opinion is foolish.

It costs the same money in the end to re-assemble with stock LBZ or LMM rods as it does with aftermarket rods, the only difference is the cost of the rods.

It is like walking over dollars to pick up pennies IMHO.

If you are serious about racing, or pushing it to the limits then rods are a necessity not a choice.

 

[pepperidge]

duly noted...

Should I add keying or welding the Water pump while it's apart and keying or pinning the oil pump drive?

 

[GMC_2002_Dmax]

Basic build-shortblock IMHO

1) RODS, aftermarket
2) Replace main bearings, rod bearings
3) Align Hone mains, re-center cam to crank centers or at least check it
4) Main Studs - cheap insurance
5) Key crank and cam
6) Deck block if necessary
7) Pin or key oil pump shaft
8) Pin or key waterpump ( replace if over 75K miles )
9) Re-use pistons if good, de-lip and coat
10) Rings, freeze plugs, misc. gaskets, etc should be new

Now if you have that you can do whatever you want and not have to go back into the bottom end.

Top End

1) Head studs - again cheap insurance
2) Pressure check heads, re-seal cups while it's apart
3) If you need heads refreshed, SoCal Stage I
4) New Head Gaskets.

That's it, you can make 800 Hp easily and it will stay together.

For those on a budget minded build, remember how you got to where you are and ask yourself, how long will it last without rods and how many times to I want to pull the motor.

If you keep it under 450/900 you might have a chance at it lasting, but you will be running mid 13's and not winning many sled pulls.

:thumb:

Do it once and do it right, or go back to lower HO/TQ

 

[JD Dave]

Is Guys a rebadged ATI or something specific to Guy? I had thought about going ahead and getting one.

Guy apparently helped ATI design the damper, they are exactly the same. The new motor I bought came with an ATI and I didn't realize untill I talked with ATI that Socal's and it were the exact same.

I'm with Bac when doing a build one thing leads to another and all the little things really add up.

 

[pepperidge]

and the results are...

Well we started breaking it down yesterday...

We didn't pull the heads but are ready to...

but what we found so far was pass exhaust manifold...bone dry...

drivers exhaust manifold wet with diesel... after a year...
(all exhaust ports of the drivers head were lightly wet with #6 being really wet)

Pulled the valve covers and started removing injectors...

#2 pulled out with my fingers and the cup came with it...THAT EASY...

the other 7 had to be pryed out...

my guess: the coolant pressurization I had experienced for a long time before Suncoast was from that #2 injector cup(sealed improperly when the HG's were done maybe?)
the heads are studded so I'm not sure if it is the HG's but for insurance will probably change them

Curiosity made us skip pulling the heads to check the HG's for now so we opted to pull the front cover and look to see if what some had told me the issue would be because of the whacked out injector rates...a bent Cam Pin...

results: cam pin intact & Crank pin intact...

where to go next?

I'm thinking next when we have time will be to pull the oil pan and have a look at the rods?

reiterate: the HG's were done at MA over a year before Suncoast but pressurization occured a few months after and progressively got worse...my balance rates showed one bad injector 7.0 and IIRC another 4.5 with a third @ 3.2(?) before suncoast and it hazed at idle...
truck went south an hour from home with huge cloud of white (fuel) smoke from exhaust...side of the road I hooked efi up and all balance rates were at 7.0




thoughts?

 

[KEVINL]

sounds like just some bad cups

was pressurizing the coolant the only problem

 

[dmaxfireman]

i have a similar view on rods. eventually i will be building a second motor that will NEED rods. my first one will not. it will be a single stock cp3 and i think no matter how much air i can stuff in it LBZ rods will hold it. If not it will be a risk i am willing to take for $3k

If you are willing to chance it and are able to control your torque by keeping the big fuel out of the low rpms IMHO you'll be alright. If you can wait a month or so i will let you know once my motor is in the truck and a few pulls are under my belt with it