Well I tried to meet in the middle..............

[IdahoRob]

I just heard about this thread. I'm guessing this is the engine DTS built as per my request back in June 2011.

To be completely honest, I don't remember most of the details.

The engine was built and received about 6 months after order IIRC. DTS and ATP had by then wrapped up doing business together so it was put on the market for sale. I never even pulled it from the crate.

Could David and I had a discussion about the crank condition, yes. Would I have discussed this and allowed a faulty crank in a race build, no. Would I allow the builder to make a judgment call, sure. I'm not pointing fingers as I never saw the condition before or after. If I OK'd putting a sub-par crank in a build for my own purposes, then I would of never sold the engine knowing it had a bad crank.

On the water pump, again a bit fuzzy but it may have been discussed that an electric pump was going to be used.

On the oil pump, DTS was doing there own modifications to pumps and I did not supply the pump. Again, I never saw the pump before or after.

So to sum up what I remember, it is not much. I chose to sell it and not run it, not because I felt it was inferior, but because of business and personal reasons. I'm sorry if it caused anyone issues, I would have never sold it if I thought there were issues with the build. I have not seen the condition of the build, so not taking a side one way or the other. Just stating what i do remember.

 

[Subman]

opcorn:

 

[S Phinney]

Cranks and bearings are to never touch each other. If they do catastrophic failure usually occurs. Windowed blocks, bent connecting rods, etc... I would say the crank is not preferable but that doesn't mean it is worthless. If you can't feel the scratch then you should not have a failure related to it if the clearances are in a desirable spec. It does look worse than. I would use but again it cones down to opinions. I learned very long ago that the customer is not always right. If you as a professional feel uncomfortable doing what the customer asks if you then you are better off refusing to do it his way. It will pay off in the end even if the customer takes his work elsewhere .

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Trippin]

I disagree. I do not let customers dictate the level of quality of my work. Let them go somewhere else as I don't need the money that bad.

I agree Mike, this is the toughest lesson for an engine or trans builder to learn.

Using questionable parts, customer supplied or otherwise doesn't do anybody any good. Usually the cost of the part is far less than the damage it does when the part fails, or the cost to remove/replace the engine "and" the questionable part at a later date.

If a part causes you to ask the question "Will it be OK?" the answer is probably no.

I've sent plenty of builds away for this very reason just as you have.

 

[jkholder09]

I disagree. I do not let customers dictate the level of quality of my work. Let them go somewhere else as I don't need the money that bad.

Mike,
You have done well for yourself.
And in turn put yourself in a very good position.
You get the pick of the litter because you have earned it I agree.

There is s middle ground where everyday guys can't afford all new stuff and they will always find a shop somewhere.

The problem here is original purchaser may have been satisfied and paid a fair price.
Now the 3rd owner is not and he wants the best.

I do agree yhe mark in the crank is not acceptable. For any engine period and I would have ground or replaced. There are some things that just can not be questioned.

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[Josh2002cc]

Mike,
You have done well for yourself.
And in turn put yourself in a very good position.
You get the pick of the litter because you have earned it I agree.

There is s middle ground where everyday guys can't afford all new stuff and they will always find a shop somewhere.

The problem here is original purchaser may have been satisfied and paid a fair price.
Now the 3rd owner is not and he wants the best.

I do agree yhe mark in the crank is not acceptable. For any engine period and I would have ground or replaced. There are some things that just can not be questioned.

from mobile

Right. So why was this and the other issues not explained over the course of many conversations the OP had with DTS and their "excellent" customer service reps/owner? All of this could have been avoided had the builder been upfront about it.

 

[SmokeShow]

Other than the mix up of who was supposed to call who next, I don't see much fault here. Sounds like the OP ended up somewhat ok that the parts were what they were since the build was for someone else who supposedly was ok with the way they were but decided he wanted better/different stuff inside. He was ready to buy said better parts at a discount from the original builder who also agreed to sell them at cost to "make it right". Do to the communication issues, that didn't happen; am I right? Ultimately, that seems to be the only real outstanding issue - a miscommunication.

So everyone is calling for David/DTS to "make things right or else" but my question is, what is there to make right and how so? There's no parts to purchase or sponsorship to offer. Are you all suggesting David cuts Bill a check for the difference in "cost" versus "retail" on the parts he purchased at full price from elsewhere since that was their deal? Right or wrong, if I were David, I'd do that in order to attempt to get this to go away.

 

[jkholder09]

Right. So why was this and the other issues not explained over the course of many conversations the OP had with DTS and their "excellent" customer service reps/owner? All of this could have been avoided had the builder been upfront about it.

Well that's a good point as well.
I think in this case I would only talk to the original customer about the engine.


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[MACKIN]

you guys are also missing that DTS didnt tell Bill about what they did with the crank at the time he called looooong ago.

I wasn't aware the final user (buyer) (thread starter) called DTS to fully discuss the engine build and expectations. Now it was 3 years ago or there abouts and like Rob is stating as you get older your memory slips but after reading Robs post I believe I have gotten my question answered and will not pass judgment ! :joker:

opcorn:

Yes at this point might as well settle in with some popcorn and a beverage!

 

[Josh2002cc]

Well that's a good point as well.
I think in this case I would only talk to the original customer about the engine.


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Why the original customer? He would be more likely to omit things because he wants to sell it(not saying the original owner would have). The OP did his homework and talked to the guy who BUILT it, this is when everything should have been brought to light so the OP could make an informed decision. In my opinion, the builder was less than ethical and purposely left certain details out. I say this because when the owner of DTS came on here he never said different. What does that tell you?

 

[juddski88]

Why the original customer? He would be more likely to omit things because he wants to sell it(not saying the original owner would have). The OP did his homework and talked to the guy who BUILT it, this is when everything should have been brought to light so the OP could make an informed decision. In my opinion, the builder was less than ethical and purposely left certain details out. I say this because when the owner of DTS came on here he never said different. What does that tell you?

In your past of buying salvage vehicles and fixing them and selling them for profit, did you always disclose every little detail? Actual mileage, each used replacement part, etc? When you sold your pulling truck, did you disclose every little detail? Can you remember each detail from all that past work today?

 

[dracing70]

My question is why dts did not build this for bill and his budget..
the original buyer said to run the crank..was the scratch below the surface could you feel it?

Yes u could drop a finger nail in

 

[JoshH]

Mike,
You have done well for yourself.
And in turn put yourself in a very good position.
You get the pick of the litter because you have earned it I agree.

There is s middle ground where everyday guys can't afford all new stuff and they will always find a shop somewhere.

The problem here is original purchaser may have been satisfied and paid a fair price.
Now the 3rd owner is not and he wants the best.

I do agree yhe mark in the crank is not acceptable. For any engine period and I would have ground or replaced. There are some things that just can not be questioned.

from mobile

No one is saying you have to buy new parts when you're doing a build, but there is a difference between used and defective. The OP already stated he spent $700 on replacing the crank. I'm assuming this is including polishing and balancing which should have been done on the original crank as well. Once you subtract that from the $700, you're adding less than $500 to get a good, unblemished crank. On a build that is probably somewhere north of $10,000, don't you think it's a better option? Would the crank have worked fine as is? Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. The only way to know for sure would be to run it, but it would be worth it to me to swap it even if it's just for the peace of mind.

 

[juddski88]

If we built a transmission for a guy, the guy sells the truck and tells the new owner it has a built transmission but only has the information that we include on the Invoice, we would expect the new owner to call me with any questions OK. We would tell him the same thing we told the original customer - use only dex 3 fluid, change the filters with only allison filters, this build is good for xxxhp given perfect conditions and the setup it left our shop with, blah blah blah...If said new owner calls us saying that its my fault that his trans is spanked and his shop took it apart and said we did it wrong, our response would be identical to David's. Would yours not be?

 

[dracing70]

Right. So why was this and the other issues not explained over the course of many conversations the OP had with DTS and their "excellent" customer service reps/owner? All of this could have been avoided had the builder been upfront about it.

This is the only point I have really tried to make. That and the fact an agreement had been reached and when it came time to pay up. I was ignored!!!!!!

 

[Josh2002cc]

If we built a transmission for a guy, the guy sells the truck and tells the new owner it has a built transmission but only has the information that we include on the Invoice, we would expect the new owner to call me with any questions OK. We would tell him the same thing we told the original customer - use only dex 3 fluid, change the filters with only allison filters, this build is good for xxxhp given perfect conditions and the setup it left our shop with, blah blah blah...If said new owner calls us saying that its my fault that his trans is spanked and his shop took it apart and said we did it wrong, our response would be identical to David's. Would yours not be?

So when the guy buying it from your original customer called you(prior to purchase and several times), you wouldn't tell them corners were cut because it was a budget build? Would you just leave that part out? Afterall, that would be some pretty important information to have...right?

Based off the OP and DTS, they talked several times before and after business hours yet the crank issue and waterpump gear were never brought up. This is not being disputed other than DTS saying "well, thats the way the original owner wanted it". If that is the case, why didn't they tell him BEFORE he bought it?

 

[dracing70]

Why the original customer? He would be more likely to omit things because he wants to sell it(not saying the original owner would have). The OP did his homework and talked to the guy who BUILT it, this is when everything should have been brought to light so the OP could make an informed decision. In my opinion, the builder was less than ethical and purposely left certain details out. I say this because when the owner of DTS came on here he never said different. What does that tell you?

Exactly my point

 

[juddski88]

So when the guy buying it from your original customer called you(prior to purchase and several times), you wouldn't tell them corners were cut because it was a budget build? Would you just leave that part out? Afterall, that would be some pretty important information to have...right?

Based off the OP and DTS, they talked several times before and after business hours yet the crank issue and waterpump gear were never brought up. This is not being disputed other than DTS saying "well, thats the way the original owner wanted it". If that is the case, why didn't they tell him BEFORE he bought it?

And I agree there, However, did he remember? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[dracing70]

No one is saying you have to buy new parts when you're doing a build, but there is a difference between used and defective. The OP already stated he spent $700 on replacing the crank. I'm assuming this is including polishing and balancing which should have been done on the original crank as well. Once you subtract that from the $700, you're adding less than $500 to get a good, unblemished crank. On a build that is probably somewhere north of $10,000, don't you think it's a better option? Would the crank have worked fine as is? Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. The only way to know for sure would be to run it, but it would be worth it to me to swap it even if it's just for the peace of mind.

Lol spent quite a bit more than 700 to make right. Just off the top of my head near 2500 after new parts and labor. I was just trying to not be greedy cause I felt bad for David so I asked for 700. New crank alone was 1000. Not to mention all the B.S. And the crank in question that I paid to ship to David in a pretty sweet homemade crate I might add.

 

[jkholder09]

No one is saying you have to buy new parts when you're doing a build, but there is a difference between used and defective. The OP already stated he spent $700 on replacing the crank. I'm assuming this is including polishing and balancing which should have been done on the original crank as well. Once you subtract that from the $700, you're adding less than $500 to get a good, unblemished crank. On a build that is probably somewhere north of $10,000, don't you think it's a better option? Would the crank have worked fine as is? Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. The only way to know for sure would be to run it, but it would be worth it to me to swap it even if it's just for the peace of mind.

I don't think I would put a crank with a blemish that cuts your nail in anything.

But yes it may be ok or it may cause a v shaped turbulance in oil film.

Documentation on written receipts is always the best.
Had the op saw
" crank journel scored customer declined replacement, no warranty on crank life"
Written on the original receipt then this thread does not happen.


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