LB7: SAC-style Injector Life

[THEFERMANATOR]

Sounds good, mine still a bit stinky at idle with just a bit of visible haze.

Pilot timing is CRITICAL I found when tuning mine. I know most tuners don't like to adjust pilot, but I found small pilot changes made big changes in how the engine runs. Pilot quantity is also huge. A 5% change in pilot quantity with vco's made hardly any change, maybe change the fuel quantity .2mm3 of fuel, but with sac's it will change it almost 1mm3 of fuel. Pilot tuning is what I had to do to mine to clean it up and get decent balance rates.

 

[77cruiser]

If I use the Autocal pass through to my laptop can I see the pilot timing I know it shows main inj. timing?

 

[77cruiser]

I got the timing. Main was -2 8.4mm3 Pilot is 3.7 .09mm3
What's that telling you? Does it need to be adjusted?

 

[oldred95]

I didn't take note of the pilot and main injection quantities but rather just the timing when logging mine. If you are at 3.7 degrees of pilot injection try 4.5 and see how it goes. For what it's worth I've borrowed the pilot quantity values of 1.5 in the idle areas like that of the LLY. Not sure if that's playing a role in the quiet idle and clean exhaust or not though.

 

[77cruiser]

I didn't do the tunes so I have now way to change, unless I talk to the person that did them.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I got the timing. Main was -2 8.4mm3 Pilot is 3.7 .09mm3
What's that telling you? Does it need to be adjusted?

Iirc, that's pretty dang close to mine.

And I posted in my old thread, but I found my balance rate issue with mine today. Nothing is wrong on the truck side, my V2 and the scan tool have both been givi g me bad balance rates. I noticed the injector pulsewidths when I looked at the individual pw never matched up to my balance rates for what I would expect to see. I just picked up a tech 2 this week and it shows my balance rates ranging from -.6 to .5, so all of them are almost within 1mm3 of fuel of each other at idle. In contrast my V2 showed them ranging from -3.2 to 1.8. I double checked them because a month ago I scanned another lb7 with brand new s&s torque master injectors, and it showed them all over the place with 1 at a plus 13 on an engine that ran smooth as silk, no smoke, and no smells out the exhaust. So it looks like to me anyways, that efilive has problems with lly and lb7's.

 

[77cruiser]

Iirc, that's pretty dang close to mine.

And I posted in my old thread, but I found my balance rate issue with mine today. Nothing is wrong on the truck side, my V2 and the scan tool have both been givi g me bad balance rates. I noticed the injector pulsewidths when I looked at the individual pw never matched up to my balance rates for what I would expect to see. I just picked up a tech 2 this week and it shows my balance rates ranging from -.6 to .5, so all of them are almost within 1mm3 of fuel of each other at idle. In contrast my V2 showed them ranging from -3.2 to 1.8. I double checked them because a month ago I scanned another lb7 with brand new s&s torque master injectors, and it showed them all over the place with 1 at a plus 13 on an engine that ran smooth as silk, no smoke, and no smells out the exhaust. So it looks like to me anyways, that efilive has problems with lly and lb7's.

Checked my balance rates too with the autocal hooked to my laptop. Don't really know if it's reading them right cause I got just round numbers no tenths. 1,-1, 0 -2 something like that the worst was going back & forth -1 to -2.


BTW I have 12K miles on it already, 8K towing my 5th wheel.

 

[DAVe3283]

Day 976 (2 years, 8 months, 1 day)
Hours on injectors: 519.5 (+249.4 since last update)
Miles on injectors: 22,389 (+10,278)
Fuel injected: 1,472.1 gal (+728.1)
Miles on motor: 33,185
Miles on truck: 329,421

           Drive  Park
BALRCYL1   -2.75  -1.83
BALRCYL2   +0.90  +0.33
BALRCYL3   +0.23  +0.04
BALRCYL4   +1.34  +0.59
BALRCYL5   +0.11  +0.86
BALRCYL6   +0.31  +0.42
BALRCYL7   +0.91  +0.42
BALRCYL8   -0.77  -0.34
MAINRATE 12.8mm³ 7.8mm³

Once again, balance rates are great. Some cylinders are better, some are worse, but all within a tiny change of before. I think these injectors have settled in for the long haul. Main fuel rate is spot on from before, which is good too.

Exhaust has a slight diesel smell (no EGR or cat), but not eye-watering or anything. Might be more than last time, might not, it has been so long. About the same as my Suburban, so probably perfectly normal. You only smell it if you stick your face in the exhaust, not walking around to load/unload cargo.

While the injectors seem to be flawless, I am starting to wonder about the condition of my rings. I am seeing increased oil consumption and more blowby smell at idle. Nothing too crazy yet, but I seem to be burning 1 quart every 6,000 miles now, which is up from when I built it. I believe it used to burn a quart every 10,000 miles. No crankcase pressure at idle (flip the oil cap and it just sits there). It could be that I am just working the truck harder on average, though, since I now commute my Pontiac. The truck only comes out to haul or to race, and the speed limit was raised on one of my main routes, so I tach 2400+ RPM for 4 hours straight now. We shall see how long this motor lasts, but I don't have any concerns about the injectors at this point.

Because my use case for the truck changed, it is hard to say if fuel economy is still up over the VCOs. I am definitely working the truck harder now, and it shows in the fuel mileage. I'm averaging low 15 MPG's highway at 85+ MPH, and 13 city/commute. I used to get 17+ highway, back when the limit was 65. Since I get the same mileage commuting, I am going to attribute the lower MPGs to the much higher speeds I've been driving.

 

[oldred95]

This is very encouraging.

This past week I had the opportunity to do some work to a 2004 LB7 that I had installed a set of SAC 45s in about 1 1/2 years ago. Neither the owner or I could remember the exact mileage at the time of the install but we both agreed the injectors have at least 40,000 miles on them. The fuel rate at idle is still a steady 8 mm3 and the balance rates are virtually perfect. I didn't record the readings but I remember in park #1 was at 2.0 with the remaining seven injectors in the 0.8 to 1.4 range. In gear the rates were 0.4 to 0.8 across the board. I was pretty impressed.

I haven't looked at the balance rates on mine lately but things seem to be just fine. I'm still amazed at just how quiet it is. The exhaust odor isn't quite as clean smelling as it was. Maybe I was so used to it making my eyes water with the worn VCO nozzles that it made the SAC 45s seem cleaner than they really are. It smells no worse than any newer deleted truck does though. My DIC indicated and hand calculated mileage are within 0.1 mpg of each other. I've yet to see anything under 18 mpg and my current best being 20.25 mpg. The best I ever saw with VCOs was 19 and I really had to work to get that. I'm hoping I can squeeze a little bit more out of it with some subtle tuning changes but all in all I'm very pleased with the outcome.

 

[dieselgreg]

S&S Diesel Motorsport pioneered the use of the SAC45 injectors in the LB7 and is the only source for genuine Bosch SAC45 nozzles and injectors. Do not accept aftermarket sourced nozzles claiming to be the same as the original S&S SAC45. Ask your supplier, if it did not come directly from S&S, it may or may not be the original SAC45 nozzle.

Building on the success of the SAC45 nozzle, S&S has worked directly with Bosch on the custom design of a SAC00 nozzle for LB7 applications. Exact replacement for a stock nozzle, with stock injector output across the operating range. So close in fact we sought and received CARB compliant status with this nozzle fitted to the LB7 injector. The nozzle has all of the latest upgrades including a DLC coated needle seat that the SAC45 nozzle lacks.

We will be launching the S&S exclusive SAC00 early in 2019. We will be phasing out the inferior SAC45 LB7 and larger LB7 nozzles, replacing them with nozzles based our superior design SAC00.

Available only through S&S Diesel MotorSport Dealers. Additional information at ssdiesel.com and at the Wagler Competition booth, 2018 PRI, this coming week.

 

[SmokeShow]

If your spelling and grammar weren't so good, I'd put money on you being Greg Hogue... Interesting first post, greg. Mind making an introductory post as it appears you are with S&S?

 

[N2BRK]

If he starts talking to himself for a few posts, it’ll def give himself away. :roflmao:

 

[DAVe3283]

Oh sure, since I put new VCO injectors in the Suburban last month because I didn't want to re-tune, you announce a stock replacement SAC for next year.

Just kidding, that's excellent news! If my truck injectors ever fail (not looking likely) or when my Suburban injectors wear out, I'll be trying these new injectors.

Couldn't pass on the sale price Lincoln had on VCOs was the real reason. The old set weren't even that bad, but I was in there for head gaskets anyway, and it was too cheap not to do.

Sent from my Cat S60 using Tapatalk

 

[dieselgreg]

If your spelling and grammar weren't so good, I'd put money on you being Greg Hogue... Interesting first post, greg. Mind making an introductory post as it appears you are with S&S?

Ah, Thank-you for the complement on my spelling and grammar (I think its a compliment anyway) My name is Greg Spoolstra and I started the performance group at Exergy back in 2007 or so. Developing the nozzle EDM and hone processes along with injector balancing and the internal injector modification known as "Redman" with assistance from Bosch MotorSport Engineers. I started with one nozzle at a time, one injector at a time and one set at a time. It grew rapidly from there.

Some of my earliest contacts regarding high output injectors were Eric Merchant, Chris Kusilek, Kyle Michael, Guy Tripp and Clint Cannon. All pioneers in the world of high performance Turbo-Diesels. My apologies to anyone I may have left out as their are more.

My classical fuel system training and experience told me it can't be done, to which they replied, may be so, but we've been doing it for years... (me- "no, you can't run a 2800 uSec pulse width at 5000 rpm..." for example) It's been an absolute hoot since then. Hats off to those guys and all that continue to push diesel technology. S&S will be there when you need us.

My 30 years or so (time flies when you are having fun) background in Diesel Fuel Injector design and testing served me well with these projects. I have worked with a lot of really smart folks over the years and like to think some of it has "rubbed off".

The Exergy 10 and 12 mm stroker pumps were initially developed and tested by me during this time with the 14mm pump "on the drawing board". I still remember building, testing and hand stamping 12mm Stroker pump number 001.

Fast forward to fall of 2012, when Exergy management and I agreed to disagree and S&S Diesel MotorSport was born. We achieved Bosch Motorsport Dealer status in early 2013.

About 18 months later S&S was joined by Mr. Andrew Stauffer from Bosch Motorsport bringing extensive fuel system and engine ECU calibration experience. We have since engineered and introduced several CARB compliant products along with a complete line of durability and performance enhancing products for off-road applications.

The LB7 VCO nozzle problem has been on our list for a long time and after no less than 3 years of false starts with Bosch MotorSport and Bosch Aftermarket we finally have the nozzle that will solve the LB7 hazing issue.

Is that a sufficient introduction for a second post? I avoid posting as its too easy to be misinterpreted, but felt it important that accurate information about the SAC45 and soon to be released SAC00 be communicated.

There are many members on this forum I have talked with over the years and (hopefully) will back me up with this introduction.

I humbly hit "submit reply" with the hope I have been clear and accurate. I reserve the right to make necessary corrections should any be required.

 

[Ne-max]

I heard about these new injectors. As a shop owner I cant wait. Many of my customers would pay extra for there last set of lb7 injectors. I dont sell many of the correct sac 45s cause of the required tuning. You guys hit a home run Greg. Good job sir. :thumb:

 

[Bdsankey]

I heard about these new injectors. As a shop owner I cant wait. Many of my customers would pay extra for there last set of lb7 injectors. I dont sell many of the correct sac 45s cause of the required tuning. You guys hit a home run Greg. Good job sir. :thumb:

Right? 9/10 times my customers would love a SAC injector but don't want the added nozzle size requiring either a retune or a tune at all. The ~$600 it is now between VCO reman and SAC45 isn't much for them to swallow for a customer who uses their truck as a hotshot.

 

[Chevy1925]

Day 976 (2 years, 8 months, 1 day)
Hours on injectors: 519.5 (+249.4 since last update)
Miles on injectors: 22,389 (+10,278)
Fuel injected: 1,472.1 gal (+728.1)
Miles on motor: 33,185
Miles on truck: 329,421

           Drive  Park
BALRCYL1   -2.75  -1.83
BALRCYL2   +0.90  +0.33
BALRCYL3   +0.23  +0.04
BALRCYL4   +1.34  +0.59
BALRCYL5   +0.11  +0.86
BALRCYL6   +0.31  +0.42
BALRCYL7   +0.91  +0.42
BALRCYL8   -0.77  -0.34
MAINRATE 12.8mm³ 7.8mm³

Once again, balance rates are great. Some cylinders are better, some are worse, but all within a tiny change of before. I think these injectors have settled in for the long haul. Main fuel rate is spot on from before, which is good too.

Exhaust has a slight diesel smell (no EGR or cat), but not eye-watering or anything. Might be more than last time, might not, it has been so long. About the same as my Suburban, so probably perfectly normal. You only smell it if you stick your face in the exhaust, not walking around to load/unload cargo.

While the injectors seem to be flawless, I am starting to wonder about the condition of my rings. I am seeing increased oil consumption and more blowby smell at idle. Nothing too crazy yet, but I seem to be burning 1 quart every 6,000 miles now, which is up from when I built it. I believe it used to burn a quart every 10,000 miles. No crankcase pressure at idle (flip the oil cap and it just sits there). It could be that I am just working the truck harder on average, though, since I now commute my Pontiac. The truck only comes out to haul or to race, and the speed limit was raised on one of my main routes, so I tach 2400+ RPM for 4 hours straight now. We shall see how long this motor lasts, but I don't have any concerns about the injectors at this point.

Because my use case for the truck changed, it is hard to say if fuel economy is still up over the VCOs. I am definitely working the truck harder now, and it shows in the fuel mileage. I'm averaging low 15 MPG's highway at 85+ MPH, and 13 city/commute. I used to get 17+ highway, back when the limit was 65. Since I get the same mileage commuting, I am going to attribute the lower MPGs to the much higher speeds I've been driving.

What rings did you use?

 

[DAVe3283]

What rings did you use?

The (apparently crap) ones that came with the Mahle race cast pistons. It was months after I finished the build before I learned about the stainless rings. Oh well, nothing I can do about it now but watch and see how long they last.

That's what I get for trusting a piston manufacturer to know what they're doing...

 

[Chevy1925]

Ah, Thank-you for the complement on my spelling and grammar (I think its a compliment anyway) My name is Greg Spoolstra and I started the performance group at Exergy back in 2007 or so. Developing the nozzle EDM and hone processes along with injector balancing and the internal injector modification known as "Redman" with assistance from Bosch MotorSport Engineers. I started with one nozzle at a time, one injector at a time and one set at a time. It grew rapidly from there.



Some of my earliest contacts regarding high output injectors were Eric Merchant, Chris Kusilek, Kyle Michael, Guy Tripp and Clint Cannon. All pioneers in the world of high performance Turbo-Diesels. My apologies to anyone I may have left out as their are more.



My classical fuel system training and experience told me it can't be done, to which they replied, may be so, but we've been doing it for years... (me- "no, you can't run a 2800 uSec pulse width at 5000 rpm..." for example) It's been an absolute hoot since then. Hats off to those guys and all that continue to push diesel technology. S&S will be there when you need us.



My 30 years or so (time flies when you are having fun) background in Diesel Fuel Injector design and testing served me well with these projects. I have worked with a lot of really smart folks over the years and like to think some of it has "rubbed off".



The Exergy 10 and 12 mm stroker pumps were initially developed and tested by me during this time with the 14mm pump "on the drawing board". I still remember building, testing and hand stamping 12mm Stroker pump number 001.



Fast forward to fall of 2012, when Exergy management and I agreed to disagree and S&S Diesel MotorSport was born. We achieved Bosch Motorsport Dealer status in early 2013.



About 18 months later S&S was joined by Mr. Andrew Stauffer from Bosch Motorsport bringing extensive fuel system and engine ECU calibration experience. We have since engineered and introduced several CARB compliant products along with a complete line of durability and performance enhancing products for off-road applications.



The LB7 VCO nozzle problem has been on our list for a long time and after no less than 3 years of false starts with Bosch MotorSport and Bosch Aftermarket we finally have the nozzle that will solve the LB7 hazing issue.



Is that a sufficient introduction for a second post? I avoid posting as its too easy to be misinterpreted, but felt it important that accurate information about the SAC45 and soon to be released SAC00 be communicated.



There are many members on this forum I have talked with over the years and (hopefully) will back me up with this introduction.



I humbly hit "submit reply" with the hope I have been clear and accurate. I reserve the right to make necessary corrections should any be required.

Your good Greg.

 

[fl0w3n]

Great things come to those who wait, I guess :woott:


I almost got injectors a couple months back, and really debated between the SAC 45%'s and LDS Bosch, but decided to hold off.


As long as the price isn't extraordinary, I'll definitely be looking at the SAC00's!