N2O nozzle pre or post IC?
- Thread starter blue68383
- Start date
super diesel
<<<< Under Pressure
Post I/C nets the greatest results. I'm sure you know to use in moderation though. Don't want to be replacing pistons or anything else.
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:rofl: Your exact word's to me 2years ago Michael!! 20 passes with a .105pill later I lifted the heads!!
But boy did she smile when I strapped the bottle to her back!!:hug:
super diesel
<<<< Under Pressure
I didn't find this to be the case at all on my truck or the one's I tested. Any hard data? Try it on a dyno like I did? I gained a clean 100hp more with it after the I/C. I still have the graphs.
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Sure, on the track (by just changeing injection location) i gained 2.5 tenths in the 1/4, on my NGM dodge truck.
On the dyno we netted about a 60 HP difference on a dodge, so it could be different on a ford or chevy. im sure engine design and boost psi make a difference too
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tuning in. Very interested in this debate.
Would really like to see some hard comparisons.
Would also ask why the OP doesn't query about pre-compressor.
Would really like to see some hard comparisons.
Would also ask why the OP doesn't query about pre-compressor.
We tried the pre compressor, and it ended up blowing the comp side of the turbo apart,( the wheel came apart).
after investigation, we found that the turbo produces air as high as 450* outlet temp and with certain wheel materials did not like that much, going from 450 to -120 in a flash caused issues.
so we then took measurements before and after the IC, the post IC temp was about 130*
The pre IC temp was closer to 380-400 at WOT and full boost
Knowing that nitrous converts well From nitrogen to oxygen some where in the 300*'s we chose to inject pre IC Because the temp was right and it seemed to mix better and it showed us promise at the track and on the dyno.
Temp after this adjustment was made was Between 40-55* intake temp on a 90*+ day with humid conditions.:cool2:
super diesel
<<<< Under Pressure
Pat (McRat) and I tried the precompressor for the 2007 Western championship up at Bandimire. It didn't blow any compressor apart even after 3 runs and 2 stages going in. He was running a GT4202 though. Maybe the wheel could take it . All I can tell folks is, try it for yourselves to see what differances you get and where it nets the best gain for you on your set up. Obviously we have some differance of opinions here. I know what worked best for me and this is where I recomended the nozzle be set up when I was selling the kits I made for folks. Talk is cheaper than engines though.
All this time I though nitrous was nitrous oxide that boiled and turned to vapor anywhere above -127 after being discharged from a pressurized state. Also you say it's not an oxidizer but is actually oxygen (which is flamable) some where in the 300s*? Interesting that you say it changes composition (chemical make up). Have any proof of this either? MSDS sheets on this? Interesting.
. All I can tell folks is, try it for yourselves to see what differances you get and where it nets the best gain for you on your set up. Obviously we have some differance of opinions here. I know what worked best for me and this is where I recomended the nozzle be set up when I was selling the kits I made for folks. Talk is cheaper than engines though. All this time I though nitrous was nitrous oxide that boiled and turned to vapor anywhere above -127 after being discharged from a pressurized state. Also you say it's not an oxidizer but is actually oxygen (which is flamable) some where in the 300s*? Interesting that you say it changes composition (chemical make up). Have any proof of this either? MSDS sheets on this? Interesting.
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I would like to know more about the pre-C grenades. No question, if liquid is allowed in anywhere near the blades, you have a catastrophic event.
But charge cooling pre-C, at least in theory, should provide power benefits. I would assume you can't go crazy with the usual shot.
But charge cooling pre-C, at least in theory, should provide power benefits. I would assume you can't go crazy with the usual shot.
FWIW, consider limiting pre-C dosing to a 100 degree overall charge drop. If IAT is 150, then inject enough to drop to 50, and do it well upstream. The actual amount can be determined mathematically easily enough.
Just suggestions...interesting discussion. I can't think of another reason that nitrous would be harmful to the hard parts, except for the thermal shock dangers.
super diesel
<<<< Under Pressure
For some reason (not a scientist) it's erroding the pistons when used in large quantities (can't testify to the smaller shots). It's almost like an acid effect. Maybe suface melting of the aluminum from the higher thermals generated?
Michael, you may need to run some tests for us. Do you have a doner truck? :hug:
Michael, you may need to run some tests for us. Do you have a doner truck? :hug:
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super diesel
<<<< Under Pressure
Maybe the solution hear is a shot pre I/C to cool the charge and shrink the heated air so the compressor would have more room for a bigger huff and puff, then another charge after the I/C to keep it in the juicyness of the power? Whos game to try a spin?
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I am still testing the I-FOG, but I did build the nitrous contingency into it.
Your thoughts are exactly as mine. Anything liberated pre-C must be fully vaporized.
I don't have the schedule right now, including personal issues, to do anything, but nitrous is on the calendar. I am also using a smart controller to control multiple assets, water, nitrous, cng, etc...all independently with I/O processing.
Your thoughts are exactly as mine. Anything liberated pre-C must be fully vaporized.
I don't have the schedule right now, including personal issues, to do anything, but nitrous is on the calendar. I am also using a smart controller to control multiple assets, water, nitrous, cng, etc...all independently with I/O processing.
super diesel
<<<< Under Pressure
Watch the water going in and the placement. I froze my intake BIG TIME with the N2O introduction . I'll be interested to see what you find and hypothesis.
. I'll be interested to see what you find and hypothesis.
The great thing about smart logic, is you can place a sensor anywhere, and condition injection based on it. For example, you could cease all injection, IF post compressor temps reduce below 200 F (hypothetical).
I don't consider water and nitrous as complimentary when co-located. Unless it is really hot IAT, it would be one or the other. Water is highly suited to sustained loads IMO, N20 for short power requests...
I don't consider water and nitrous as complimentary when co-located. Unless it is really hot IAT, it would be one or the other. Water is highly suited to sustained loads IMO, N20 for short power requests...
super diesel
<<<< Under Pressure
I have my nozzle post intercooler and it works great. I thought about putting one pre intercooler but if nitrous is -120deg and its injecting right into the intake down into the motor a shot pre intercooler isnt going to drop the temp to -200. You might have a little more dense air coming out of the intercooler from the first stage but the second stage is shooting right into the engine at -120 so overall do you think it would benefit? If it did benefit gains would be very small IMO. You could just put a bigger pill in post intercooler for more power and save some money. From test's i have seen, if you put a .065 jet pre intercooler or a .065 jet post intercooler you will net bigger gains from the post intercooler set up.
The only reason i would do it is to have a pre Intercooler shot for first stage off the line for better 60' then have the second stage hit post intercooler for the bigger shot...and to just to make my nitrous set up look pretty. Thats just my opinion.
I also thought about spraying the outside of the intecooler with a nitrous spray bar to drop the temps on the intercooler which would help with the air passing through the intercooler. Only one question, would the pulling or drag stip commitee still consider that a power adder since its nitrous, even though its not getting injected into the motor?
The only reason i would do it is to have a pre Intercooler shot for first stage off the line for better 60' then have the second stage hit post intercooler for the bigger shot...and to just to make my nitrous set up look pretty. Thats just my opinion.
I also thought about spraying the outside of the intecooler with a nitrous spray bar to drop the temps on the intercooler which would help with the air passing through the intercooler. Only one question, would the pulling or drag stip commitee still consider that a power adder since its nitrous, even though its not getting injected into the motor?
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youll find that having nitrous in a liquid form is only good untill it reaches the Heat of the intake charge,( the power of nitrous is caused from the separation of one element to another element that produces cold oxygen) accually putting in liquid nitrous into the combustion chamber would cause negative effects, such as a thermal shock load on the entier combustion chamber, and the freezing of the water thats in the oxygen, which will also incres as boost increases(PSI)
This is another reason i dont inject large quanities so close to the engine, but Pre IC instead.
Nitrous by itself cannot hurt a piston, but the advanced timming of fuel and nitrous could ignight TOO early and cause a burn before TDC to some degree, on cast pistons and inferiour designs could be the coulpret completly, along with the H.P. fuel stabing the piston as it heats up to creat combustion.....
I belive that it will not be an issue with a true forged piston, similar to what most of Drag racing uses now such as Arias, vinola,wiesco.....
Coating the piston IS a better way to help reduce th chances of melting the piston. My pistons for my d-max are hard anodized, and then ceramic coated to ensure less thermal heat absorbtion and increasing HP potential up to 10%
This is another reason i dont inject large quanities so close to the engine, but Pre IC instead.
Nitrous by itself cannot hurt a piston, but the advanced timming of fuel and nitrous could ignight TOO early and cause a burn before TDC to some degree, on cast pistons and inferiour designs could be the coulpret completly, along with the H.P. fuel stabing the piston as it heats up to creat combustion.....
I belive that it will not be an issue with a true forged piston, similar to what most of Drag racing uses now such as Arias, vinola,wiesco.....
Coating the piston IS a better way to help reduce th chances of melting the piston. My pistons for my d-max are hard anodized, and then ceramic coated to ensure less thermal heat absorbtion and increasing HP potential up to 10%