Ill should back out of this thread for now. I just hope the best for someone that was trying to bring something to the duramax community and a friend.
Man look at the hell storm I found on the diesel place over some rods
- Thread starter sillyboyrs4
- Start date
x2 I belive that there was as well. as this was suposed to be a verry reputable shop that made them. that build high HP billet cranks and what not. I agree mabey every test didnt get done. But im sure many of the big boys out there didint do those test when they first started or better yet did and they still failed. It stinks That it had to happen to ben. and especially after all the time and money put in to a new motor. I went through problems that where out of my controll. but because It was taken care of by the responsible party it worked out ok. was i still out money and time yes> but if i helped improve there checks and balances so it doesnt happen again for me that is some satisfaction. In the end I hope every one comes out satisfied or at least as much as possible. On a side note comunication on both sides is verry important to help resolve the issues at hand.
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If there was testing done, it was kept pretty well hidden. Do a search on DP.
It's not "new thing". They attempted to reverse engineer a Crower and did not do it correctly.
Yeah, I'll admit I have contempt for folk who wait until someone else comes up with a good product, waits until they prove themselves, then makes a cheapo ripoff version.
I didn't like it when they did it to Kennedy, SuperDiesel, HTT, PPE, etc, and my opinion hasn't changed.
It's not "noble". It just screws anyone who spends the money to develop a NEW product for your truck.
You will never know how many failures, because even after several months, all was admitted to was ONE rod on ONE truck.
If it were indeed one rod on one truck, then the rods are probably fine. Put them in your truck, I'm sure you can get a set at cost about now.
Like I've said, I wish this was some big unknown shop, so my tech talk would not be taken as flames, but I can't control who made the parts.
GMC_2002_Dmax
The Still Master
I think some people here are being swayed by who the vendor is and not what the problem is..........
Some Facts:
Nick has been helpful, but so has Ben, maybe even more helpful over a broader range of topics.
Nick has a tuning customer base, Ben does not, although he has helped with efi-live from the very beginning.
Nick is is out to make a profit as he has become a Vendor and started a business, Ben is not in business for profit to my knowledge.
Bottom line is the "Rod Vendor" reverse engineered a stock LBZ rod and did not use the same rod material as the "other" rod manufacturers did, he was upfront that this was a lower cost alternative for a budget build however the implied sales pitch was that they would hold more than a stock rod would therefore a viable alternative for a higher than stock aftermarket application.
As a side note, IdahoRob has run two MPI-Twinned trucks to high 11 seconds on a single CP3 and stock rods, that proves that the stock rods are quite strong for an extended period of time.
So my advice to all with a dog in the fight or not is to seperate the "Vendor" from the issue and take a step back. Put in "ABC rods" instead of "Duramaxtuner Rods" and see if you feel the same way.Then ask yourself what you would deem a fair and equitable settlement to the problem if you were in both Nick and Ben's shoes.
IMHO,
Everyone should feel sorry for the customer or customers who lost a motor as he/she is out the time and money right now.
Just a few more thoughts, being in business your reputation is your best friend, good or bad, people will make a determination about you based on your customer service and your willingness to help when shit goes bad.
Some Facts:
Nick has been helpful, but so has Ben, maybe even more helpful over a broader range of topics.
Nick has a tuning customer base, Ben does not, although he has helped with efi-live from the very beginning.
Nick is is out to make a profit as he has become a Vendor and started a business, Ben is not in business for profit to my knowledge.
Bottom line is the "Rod Vendor" reverse engineered a stock LBZ rod and did not use the same rod material as the "other" rod manufacturers did, he was upfront that this was a lower cost alternative for a budget build however the implied sales pitch was that they would hold more than a stock rod would therefore a viable alternative for a higher than stock aftermarket application.
As a side note, IdahoRob has run two MPI-Twinned trucks to high 11 seconds on a single CP3 and stock rods, that proves that the stock rods are quite strong for an extended period of time.
So my advice to all with a dog in the fight or not is to seperate the "Vendor" from the issue and take a step back. Put in "ABC rods" instead of "Duramaxtuner Rods" and see if you feel the same way.Then ask yourself what you would deem a fair and equitable settlement to the problem if you were in both Nick and Ben's shoes.
IMHO,
Everyone should feel sorry for the customer or customers who lost a motor as he/she is out the time and money right now.
Just a few more thoughts, being in business your reputation is your best friend, good or bad, people will make a determination about you based on your customer service and your willingness to help when shit goes bad.
I think some people here are being swayed by who the vendor is and not what the problem is..........
Some Facts:
Nick has been helpful, but so has Ben, maybe even more helpful over a broader range of topics.
Nick has a tuning customer base, Ben does not, although he has helped with efi-live from the very beginning.
Nick is is out to make a profit as he has become a Vendor and started a business, Ben is not in business for profit to my knowledge.
Bottom line is the "Rod Vendor" reverse engineered a stock LBZ rod and did not use the same rod material as the "other" rod manufacturers did, he was upfront that this was a lower cost alternative for a budget build however the implied sales pitch was that they would hold more than a stock rod would therefore a viable alternative for a higher than stock aftermarket application.
As a side note, IdahoRob has run two MPI-Twinned trucks to high 11 seconds on a single CP3 and stock rods, that proves that the stock rods are quite strong for an extended period of time.
So my advice to all with a dog in the fight or not is to seperate the "Vendor" from the issue and take a step back. Put in "ABC rods" instead of "Duramaxtuner Rods" and see if you feel the same way.Then ask yourself what you would deem a fair and equitable settlement to the problem if you were in both Nick and Ben's shoes.
IMHO,
Everyone should feel sorry for the customer or customers who lost a motor as he/she is out the time and money right now.
Just a few more thoughts, being in business your reputation is your best friend, good or bad, people will make a determination about you based on your customer service and your willingness to help when shit goes bad.
I agree
What does every one think a fair compensation would BE?
Me personally Would be to replace the parts that broke with = or better products includeing the rods block and wht ever else it took it out. Wich i dont know what that is.?
For the others that where sold and have not had a catostrophic failure buy back the rods and thats it.
Me personally Would be to replace the parts that broke with = or better products includeing the rods block and wht ever else it took it out. Wich i dont know what that is.?
For the others that where sold and have not had a catostrophic failure buy back the rods and thats it.
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You would be wrong. All the big rod makers do extensive testing all through the manufacturing processes, and discard pieces that don't pass.
It's how things are made. Even the stock parts on your truck are treated the same, and GM will not take delivery on critical parts without a paper-trail that proves they've been checked every step of the way.
None of this is new, and it's not unique. Much of the technology and procedures were developed during WWII for aircraft and weapon manufacture. A broken plane or gun is a liability, not an asset, and it's a prime reason our weapons were better than the Japanese or German weapons. Germans had some GREAT technology, but a much lower "active" percentage. Many of their best weapon systems were ineffective due to high failure or maintenance rates.
If I ever decided to make a "product" to sell, I'd be aiming at making the best, not just a cheaper version of someone else's work, but that's just me.
I want TITANIUM rods
Chevy puts them in some vettes now.
I think some people here are being swayed by who the vendor is and not what the problem is..........
Some Facts:
Nick has been helpful, but so has Ben, maybe even more helpful over a broader range of topics.
Nick has a tuning customer base, Ben does not, although he has helped with efi-live from the very beginning.
Nick is is out to make a profit as he has become a Vendor and started a business, Ben is not in business for profit to my knowledge.
Bottom line is the "Rod Vendor" reverse engineered a stock LBZ rod and did not use the same rod material as the "other" rod manufacturers did, he was upfront that this was a lower cost alternative for a budget build however the implied sales pitch was that they would hold more than a stock rod would therefore a viable alternative for a higher than stock aftermarket application.
As a side note, IdahoRob has run two MPI-Twinned trucks to high 11 seconds on a single CP3 and stock rods, that proves that the stock rods are quite strong for an extended period of time.
So my advice to all with a dog in the fight or not is to seperate the "Vendor" from the issue and take a step back. Put in "ABC rods" instead of "Duramaxtuner Rods" and see if you feel the same way.Then ask yourself what you would deem a fair and equitable settlement to the problem if you were in both Nick and Ben's shoes.
IMHO,
Everyone should feel sorry for the customer or customers who lost a motor as he/she is out the time and money right now.
Just a few more thoughts, being in business your reputation is your best friend, good or bad, people will make a determination about you based on your customer service and your willingness to help when shit goes bad.
Gotta jump back in for this, lol.
Good post I do agree, as thats what I am now doing.
Also I do feel bad for Ben and although I am friends with Nick, I am not against Ben or have anything negative toward him. I can tell you I dont agree with half of the arguments/comments made FOR Ben on dp, matter of fact I'd be willing to bet Ben doesn't agree with some either.
All in all, I hope both partys work this out.
Well said Tony. :thumb:
In the end I truly hope this deal gets resolved for all involved. Lots of mistakes have been made along the way.
Its sad that someone taking shots at me lightened your day.
In the end I truly hope this deal gets resolved for all involved. Lots of mistakes have been made along the way.
My policy for our business has been the same for over 15 years: If you are unhappy with my work for any reason, you don't pay. They get the work first, then pay for it afterwards. There has been less than a .01% rate of dissatisfaction so far, and I can't remember the last time a customer walked away displeased.
And I'm a very small shop. You'd think folk would rip me off blind with that kind of policy, but so far it has worked.
Whether that's the right policy for another business, I can't say.
You would be wrong. All the big rod makers do extensive testing all through the manufacturing processes, and discard pieces that don't pass.
It's how things are made. Even the stock parts on your truck are treated the same, and GM will not take delivery on critical parts without a paper-trail that proves they've been checked every step of the way.
None of this is new, and it's not unique. Much of the technology and procedures were developed during WWII for aircraft and weapon manufacture. A broken plane or gun is a liability, not an asset, and it's a prime reason our weapons were better than the Japanese or German weapons. Germans had some GREAT technology, but a much lower "active" percentage. Many of their best weapon systems were ineffective due to high failure or maintenance rates.
If I ever decided to make a "product" to sell, I'd be aiming at making the best, not just a cheaper version of someone else's work, but that's just me.
I want TITANIUM rods
So your saying they build a rod it passes there inspection it goes out it breaks. but its ok becuase all the test where done? My point is Even with all the inspections test and what not stuff still falls through the cracks. and im sure That they bigger companys have done all the r&d test and what not and still had a fialure. Then went back to the drawing board and made it better. I doubt with any thing there is a one hit wonder first time out of the gate.
This is my first post on this site. i am directly involved with this situation since i was dumb enough to put them in my truck. If Nick offered to buy back my rods i would be satisfied. Sure i would still be out roughly $1500.00 after purchasing new rods and haveing the crank rebalanced, but that would be way better than loseing the engine. Of course thats with me doing all the labor which i don't look forward to doing again.
OK so lets say you test a part you sign off on it. customer is happy pays you. part is put into production said part fails becuase of a miscalulation your company made and causes major damage or worse What would YOU do to satisfy the customer. I know this is a broad question but I think applies aalong the same lines?
Do you A refund the money for your testing ?
Do you refund the money for your testing and broken parts from said failed peice
Do you just refund the money for the damage caused
Or something else.
The litmus test in manufacturing is 3 sigma. Most manufacturing companies consider a process to be out of control if 3 parts in 1000 fail an inspection.
Most companies are far higher than that, that's the Fk'd Up Beyond Any Recognition (FUBAR) point. This doesn't mean they are SHIPPING parts that are 99.7%, that means even if one of the steps doesn't hit 3 sigma, you aren't making parts, you're making scrap.
It seems many Americans think those in manufacturing are a bunch of uneducated hicks, but somehow we put a man on the moon, something 5,000,000 lawyers couldn't do.
Manufacturing is a serious trade, to assume those who do it professionally are no better than any untrained person, is not only insulting, it's wildly false.
We have 2 million dollars worth of liability insurance which has never been used.
Don't all companies have insurance?
Hope thats no directed at me ? because thats not what i said or implied. I simply saying that parts are developed fail and are made better. but every one starts out some where. just like me you banks. I have no stake in any of this but to ask questions and learn.
Tony, you make excellent points all the way through.
Unfortunately for all parties, proper compensation for Ben would probably be replacing the engine as it was built, but with rods of Ben's choice. For others, it should be a buy-back, except in the cases where the rods are already installed, then its replace them, including any machine work and/or cost of removal. I am surprised Nick did not have liability insurance for just such a situation.
Pat, curious about something...from the pics, it looks like there wasnt an issue with the rod caps/bolts. Looks like most all the damage is on the small ends. Could there have been a piston skirt/rod interference issue at RPM that wouldnt have shown up during the build?
Unfortunately for all parties, proper compensation for Ben would probably be replacing the engine as it was built, but with rods of Ben's choice. For others, it should be a buy-back, except in the cases where the rods are already installed, then its replace them, including any machine work and/or cost of removal. I am surprised Nick did not have liability insurance for just such a situation.
Pat, curious about something...from the pics, it looks like there wasnt an issue with the rod caps/bolts. Looks like most all the damage is on the small ends. Could there have been a piston skirt/rod interference issue at RPM that wouldnt have shown up during the build?
If they are same shape as Crowers or Stockers, and OEM pistons are used, you aren't going to be banging stuff until they start to bend. All rods were bent, IIRC. Plus, most folk rotate the crank after everything is in place to verify there is not a tight bearing.