Lets discuss Injectors, big fuel

SmokeShow

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2006
6,818
34
48
43
Lawrenceburg, KY
So what's the max. ttese dudes can be hogged out to either in terms of phys nozzle strength/room limitations from massiveaterial removal and deminishing returns via poor fuel atomization at the max pressures these systems can feasibly n relatively safely operate at (<29k).

Thoughts???
 

JD4440

<< Lo-Carb Monster
Feb 27, 2009
1,776
1
0
Orlinda, TN
OK, Bear with an EFI newbie. The PW and Timing # we're looking for is in the bottom right corner of the chart, Correct ? If so mine would be 3100/33 (if I'm reading the right timing chart)
 

othrgrl

Diesel Addiction Owner
Mar 10, 2008
2,151
4
38
Wilmington NC
www.mydieseladdiction.com
I sold my old 100% over injectors to a customer and installed them in his LLY. It has a Floor It Stage 3 CP3, stock turbo, and about every airflow upgrade you can do - manifolds, up-pipes, downpipe, 4" exhaust, LBZ MP and S&B intake, 3" boost tubes, and 3" Pro-Flow Y-bridge. After dialing it in you would never know he has bigger than stock injectors - it doesn't smoke at all unless you purposely try to and at WOT it only has a "healthy haze". His biggest tune is running about 1900 PW with 26* of timing and doing about 600 rwhp with low EGTs. I'm definitely still a big fan of bigger injectors. My next set will be 150-200% over stock.:thumb:
 

duratothemax

<--- slippery roads
Aug 28, 2006
7,139
10
0
Wyoming
Schulte has 125% injectors in his built LLY. The way ive got it tuned now it doesnt smoke at idle, starts up cold just fine, and definitely makes good power. Idle is perfectly smooth and you would never know it has big sticks until you lay into the throttle. :cool:
 

turbhoe

researching lbz swap
Jan 8, 2011
141
0
0
jacksonville florida
is there a minimum pulse width that 100% over (or any for that matter) can fire before they cause a misfire? i know in the gasser world some injectors will just not fire correctly if they are asked to do it too fast. like useing huge injectors with stock idle trying for 1.5 miliseconds.
 

othrgrl

Diesel Addiction Owner
Mar 10, 2008
2,151
4
38
Wilmington NC
www.mydieseladdiction.com
I sold my old 100% over injectors to a customer and installed them in his LLY. It has a Floor It Stage 3 CP3, stock turbo, and about every airflow upgrade you can do - manifolds, up-pipes, downpipe, 4" exhaust, LBZ MP and S&B intake, 3" boost tubes, and 3" Pro-Flow Y-bridge. After dialing it in you would never know he has bigger than stock injectors - it doesn't smoke at all unless you purposely try to and at WOT it only has a "healthy haze". His biggest tune is running about 1900 PW with 26* of timing and doing about 600 rwhp with low EGTs. I'm definitely still a big fan of bigger injectors. My next set will be 150-200% over stock.:thumb:

The truck I was refering to here ended up doing 598, 599, and 604 rwhp on Dunbar's dyno - so my seat of the pants estimate was pretty darn close. Last pull he went to he got accused of cheating..... in the 2.6" class - they made him pull the turbo inlet so they could measure.:roflmao: Then he went and pulled in the stock class.

I have an LMM with 100% overs and a stock turbo now as well, but with the single stock CP3 we are limited on how much fuel we can run. Then there are a few others with 60% over injectors on the stock charger. It's really nice to make great power on such conservative tuning.

My 200% over injectors are on their way. When I get the motor together and in I should be able to do over 1000 rwhp on fuel on some pretty conservative tuning.

is there a minimum pulse width that 100% over (or any for that matter) can fire before they cause a misfire? i know in the gasser world some injectors will just not fire correctly if they are asked to do it too fast. like useing huge injectors with stock idle trying for 1.5 miliseconds.

Big injectors at low pressure actually take a longer pulse to get the same fuel out as a stock injector. Logging PW at idle on stock vs big injectors will show you this. To sustain idle the ECM will basically automatically adjust commanded flow rate until it gets to the PW it needs to held that RPM. We haven't had any problems with a "misfire", we'll see how my 200% over injectors do when they get here but I don't foresee any issues.
 

TNRGreene

Kicked to the Curb
Sep 2, 2006
2,911
0
0
Bradenton, Florida
So what's the max. ttese dudes can be hogged out to either in terms of phys nozzle strength/room limitations from massiveaterial removal and deminishing returns via poor fuel atomization at the max pressures these systems can feasibly n relatively safely operate at (<29k).

Thoughts???
BINGO :thumb:
 

othrgrl

Diesel Addiction Owner
Mar 10, 2008
2,151
4
38
Wilmington NC
www.mydieseladdiction.com
Dustin, are your new injectors 8-hole tips?

I had talked with Exergy about going to the Bosch Motorsports 8 holes tips which have a slightly tighter spray pattern (3* IIRC) and taking them out to 200% overs so that I could have better atomization. They wanted me to test some stuff for them first so I'm letting them try it their way - this set started with stock LLY nozzles that got EDM'd then extrude honed to 200%. If they are impossible to tune in and get the power we're after we will go to the Bosch Motorsports tips next. They have another LLY set that was strictly extude honed to 200% but they are in a sled pull only truck that doesn't care about idling decently or running smooth on the street.
 

othrgrl

Diesel Addiction Owner
Mar 10, 2008
2,151
4
38
Wilmington NC
www.mydieseladdiction.com
The 200% over injectors came in - wow are those some big holes compared to 100% over injectors. The flow sheets look great on them though - the output spreads are all within limits. At 180 MPa and 2800 uS pulse they flow 437 mm3, compared to my 100% overs that flowed around 360 mm3. The tips flow 2850 ml/min compared to the 100% overs that flow 2100 ml/min. We'll see how well they can be dialed in for street and strip use. If these don't work out I'll go to the Bosch Motorsports 8 hole tips flowed to about the same specs.

Gonna need a really big turbo to burn all this fuel now.
 

SSchmi5519

LLY Cult Leader
Oct 19, 2008
3,387
1
36
Arizona
I would not call it "conservative tuning." Rather, the fuel and timing tables are adjusted for the bigger injector size.

The benefit of the big injectors is getting a big fuel shot in there quicker, while all other things remain the same.

If adjusted properly, the timing isn't any "lower" as the same amount is still injected BTDC. The injection event itself is simply shorter, and shorter is better.


Sent from my iPhone.
 

othrgrl

Diesel Addiction Owner
Mar 10, 2008
2,151
4
38
Wilmington NC
www.mydieseladdiction.com
I would not call it "conservative tuning." Rather, the fuel and timing tables are adjusted for the bigger injector size.

The benefit of the big injectors is getting a big fuel shot in there quicker, while all other things remain the same.

If adjusted properly, the timing isn't any "lower" as the same amount is still injected BTDC. The injection event itself is simply shorter, and shorter is better.


Sent from my iPhone.

Not sure how you would not call it conservative tuning.... Some of what you are saying makes sense and the rest either doesn't or could be misinterpreted.

For simplification lets use some nice rounded numbers:

Let say we are trying to get 600 rwhp and that with stock injectors it takes about 3200 uS PW to get us there. That would mean that by 4000 RPM you would be injecting fuel for 76.8* of crank rotation. To get that long of a shot in there you are either going to run high timing to get as much in before TDC as possible, causing high cylinder pressures before TDC, which after a certain point hurts power and puts more stress on the motor; or you are going to be spraying a lot of it after TDC, chasing the piston down the bore with fire and raising EGTs. Either way it is a long heat cycle on the piston.

Now we'll take the same setup and run 100% over injectors, which should mean they are flow tested to flow double the fuel of stock injectors at the actual operating parameters. At full pressure it should take half the time to get the same amount of fuel out of the injector, so to get 600 rwhp we can now use a 1600 uS PW. Now we can get the same quantity of fuel into the motor in 38.4* of crank rotation at 4000 RPM. Now instead of building cylinder pressure so early, where it is fighting the motor, we can inject much closer to TDC; we can also stop injection not long after TDC.

Again for simplification if we used 50/50 timing at 4000 RPM you would be running 38.4* of timing to get half the fuel in before TDC on stock injectors - if you used 38.4* of timing on the 100% over injectors you would be putting all of your fuel in before TDC. If you used 17.3* of timing you would be at a 50/50. So for any given quantity of fuel you run less PW and in turn less timing on bigger injectors - which in my opinion is "more conservative tuning".