L5P L5P Tuning
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GMC_2002_Dmax
The Still Master
I, like others who tune these current models, get calls daily, emails daily, about L5P.
I have customers who are selling problematic L5P's and buying late 2015 and 2016 model LML's just to have a tunable truck.
IMHO the 2015/2016 NBS LML is the next LBZ.........its the last easily tunable ecm/tcm combo and they are keeping great pre-owned values.
I am thinking about picking up a 2016 Regular Cab to add to my 2016 loaded Denali, just so I can have a regular cab/tunable last year/model LML.
Never Say NEVER !!!.............but if I was bookie running odds on the cost and return.............its a bet I would not even give even money on, comparing what else is tunable, resources go to a method that gives a solid return.
Now someone may figure it out, but all GM has to do is push a WIFI update out as soon as a fix is found, and then with their ability to do that they can close the door that just got opened with a simple change.
if I was GM, I would already have built several changes to the code, in the unlikely event a hack is discovered, its a RESET button to make everyone start over.
I would also bet that they may initiate another update randomly just because it would be easy to do an force whomever might have some info to have to start over.
The game is always the same, if its not worth it people will not pursue it...........as if their is no POT of GOLD............glory only pays a few bills...........
Espescially when you know GM is waiting to make a few examples of people for altering the programming. After seeing how much trouble they've gone through implementing these new security measures, you know they won't sit idly by if somebody "cracks" one. I can foresee inline controllers that intercept the stock inputs and alter the injector output coming out soon to get around things. Gassers have done this for awhile, so I could easily see it for locked down diesels.
You don't know me real well. Do you...
Been doing it off and on for 37 years, but I get bored easily.
As has been said here before, the problem is the return on effort. The hurdle is to be able to crack into the street legal market. The off-road, racer market alone will not support the effort. Though it might be enough to seed the project.
However, I worked with some fuzzy logic/neural network stuff a few years back for facial recognition that I would love to apply to engine tuning. Imagine an engine that tunes itself. The group that took over after me eventually ported the whole thing onto a small ARM based chip and there is several times that horsepower in the modern ECM.
But as people keep saying. You can't do that. It impossible. Blah, blah blah......You don't know me real well, do you.
No, I don't know you real well, but that won't stop me from poking at you. Surely you recognize that about me from our previous interactions. The timing discussion was highly entertaining for me.
I too am in the industry, though I switched from embedded software to semiconductor design 6 years ago. No one has said this is impossible. We've been saying what you appear to agree with: no ROI with the realities of lawsuits and the EPA hanging over us. That limits investment in a big way.
Your comment rubbed me the wrong way since you seemed not to realize what kidturbo was saying: without access to the source code and signing setup, nothing is going to happen on the stock ECU... because of the limits on investment.
I am pretty sure he is aware you can crack one open, JTAG in a new bootloader that doesn't care about code signing, then run custom software. Just look at his work with CAN gateways. He knows his stuff too. I figured you were being pedantic, so I poked you.
But Tom's right, this isn't productive, fun as it may be to jab at each other. I've settled into the GMT800 platform for my tinkering, because I own several and because no one is going to sue me. And the time required to get anywhere with the new platform is beyond what I consider a hobby. Hopefully someone invests the time, I'd like to see the new trucks tuned. And maybe you can write embedded software faster than we can; though I agree with the timeline you postulated earlier. 3+ months of full time programmer salary is $30k easy. Who's going to front that?
If I have an epiphany, I'll post up what I figured out. But no one hold their breath...
Sent from my Cat S60 using Tapatalk
I, like others who tune these current models, get calls daily, emails daily, about L5P.
I have customers who are selling problematic L5P's and buying late 2015 and 2016 model LML's just to have a tunable truck.
IMHO the 2015/2016 NBS LML is the next LBZ.........its the last easily tunable ecm/tcm combo and they are keeping great pre-owned values.
I am thinking about picking up a 2016 Regular Cab to add to my 2016 loaded Denali, just so I can have a regular cab/tunable last year/model LML.
Never Say NEVER !!!.............but if I was bookie running odds on the cost and return.............its a bet I would not even give even money on, comparing what else is tunable, resources go to a method that gives a solid return.
Now someone may figure it out, but all GM has to do is push a WIFI update out as soon as a fix is found, and then with their ability to do that they can close the door that just got opened with a simple change.
if I was GM, I would already have built several changes to the code, in the unlikely event a hack is discovered, its a RESET button to make everyone start over.
I would also bet that they may initiate another update randomly just because it would be easy to do an force whomever might have some info to have to start over.
The game is always the same, if its not worth it people will not pursue it...........as if their is no POT of GOLD............glory only pays a few bills...........
I disagree with you on the WiFi update, Cummins/ heavy duty engines has the same deal they can update their over WiFi, but certain conditions have to be met, you do need to have an actual person inside the vehicle, you have to follow instructions, key on/off. Plus you get printed before to install update, if you don’t want to you don’t have to, there’s a 50/50 chance that ecm turns into a brick..
Maybe gm is using some other type of system to update
It’s very easy for these new rigs to bypass said operations for updates to be uploaded wirelessly without consent. I don’t like the idea but it has its benefits. A few HD tuners have systems like this that can be implemented. Some will not upload without driver permission, others are a force upload that will happen soon as the key is turned on and parked.
Don’t think gm is doing that, I had to take my L5p for a software update, and it was emission related. If it was that simple they should of just done it over WiFi.
I think GM is being very careful about how updates are done from a policy perspective more than a technical perspective. Tesla is one of the only manufactures who pushes wireless updates regularly, and it has been met with mixed reactions. When it goes well, people don't care, but when it goes wrong or a feature goes away, people cry bloody murder. Heck, even the time Tesla extended the range on all the cars in the hurricane region riled people up. Public acceptance of your update method is still important, so most brands are taking it slow.
If I was to speculate, I'd wager GM could perform a firmware update of the ECU wirelessly, but isn't confident enough in the process and potential variables (some clown unplugs the battery mid update because "dang truck won't start, needs a reset" etc.) to do it at scale. Tesla's architecture allows a software update when the car is fully off, but GM still requires a key on for various (legitimate) reasons, and that really complicates things vs. Tesla. Any time a person is involved, the chances of something going wrong go way up.
Sent from my Cat S60 using Tapatalk
If I was to speculate, I'd wager GM could perform a firmware update of the ECU wirelessly, but isn't confident enough in the process and potential variables (some clown unplugs the battery mid update because "dang truck won't start, needs a reset" etc.) to do it at scale. Tesla's architecture allows a software update when the car is fully off, but GM still requires a key on for various (legitimate) reasons, and that really complicates things vs. Tesla. Any time a person is involved, the chances of something going wrong go way up.
Sent from my Cat S60 using Tapatalk
Honestly your not hacking the cia by trying to hack, map or whatever nerd talk it is you do to get the code for the ecm. You won’t be sued until you try to sell or distribute the means to change it. Like was previously said, once you buy it you own and can do whatever you want. EPA stuff aside of course if you run it down the street.
One could if broken sell to someone out of arms reach of the EPA or GM by many different ways and that person, company or whatever could be the one to sell and distribute. There’s ways around everything. The world doesn’t stop at the US border. Pretty hard for the EPA to enforce or GM to sue Ping Tang of China in China.
But again end of the day it’s a cost vs return on investment that’s the issue. Honestly if I had the means and was able to do it I’d sit on it until I knew that GM or whoever was going to continue with this style of ecm. If it only turns out to be a couple year run and they change it up again it’s tough to justify the investment from more than just a hobby standpoint.
Personally I think it will eventually be broke to a point where it can be used to tune or replaced altogether with something that can be integrated with the rest of the modules.
One could if broken sell to someone out of arms reach of the EPA or GM by many different ways and that person, company or whatever could be the one to sell and distribute. There’s ways around everything. The world doesn’t stop at the US border. Pretty hard for the EPA to enforce or GM to sue Ping Tang of China in China.
But again end of the day it’s a cost vs return on investment that’s the issue. Honestly if I had the means and was able to do it I’d sit on it until I knew that GM or whoever was going to continue with this style of ecm. If it only turns out to be a couple year run and they change it up again it’s tough to justify the investment from more than just a hobby standpoint.
Personally I think it will eventually be broke to a point where it can be used to tune or replaced altogether with something that can be integrated with the rest of the modules.
I've always wondered how "hacking" GM's code or distributing the tunes around would compare to a computer operating system when it comes to the law.
I know Microsoft has gone to great lengths to prevent "pirated" copies of Windows and to stop people from installing multiple copies on different computers.
The argument of "once you bought it, its yours" doesn't hold up for that. I know in the fine print and legal agreement upon installation states not to do that.
So how does the DMCA come into play here? Does GM claim copyrights on it's code?
I know Microsoft has gone to great lengths to prevent "pirated" copies of Windows and to stop people from installing multiple copies on different computers.
The argument of "once you bought it, its yours" doesn't hold up for that. I know in the fine print and legal agreement upon installation states not to do that.
So how does the DMCA come into play here? Does GM claim copyrights on it's code?
I, like others who tune these current models, get calls daily, emails daily, about L5P.
I have customers who are selling problematic L5P's and buying late 2015 and 2016 model LML's just to have a tunable truck.
IMHO the 2015/2016 NBS LML is the next LBZ.........its the last easily tunable ecm/tcm combo and they are keeping great pre-owned values.
I am thinking about picking up a 2016 Regular Cab to add to my 2016 loaded Denali, just so I can have a regular cab/tunable last year/model LML.
Never Say NEVER !!!.............but if I was bookie running odds on the cost and return.............its a bet I would not even give even money on, comparing what else is tunable, resources go to a method that gives a solid return.
Now someone may figure it out, but all GM has to do is push a WIFI update out as soon as a fix is found, and then with their ability to do that they can close the door that just got opened with a simple change.
if I was GM, I would already have built several changes to the code, in the unlikely event a hack is discovered, its a RESET button to make everyone start over.
I would also bet that they may initiate another update randomly just because it would be easy to do an force whomever might have some info to have to start over.
The game is always the same, if its not worth it people will not pursue it...........as if their is no POT of GOLD............glory only pays a few bills...........
I agree with you 100% Tony. I'll be hanging on to my 16, I've actually been keeping the miles off it by DD my RCSB for that reason. I foresee it holding value like gold...
GMC_2002_Dmax
The Still Master
I am not here to argue with anyone.
My investment to get into LML Tuning was north of $10K..........just to be able to obtain proper base files, a time consuming process.
The new OS are not like the old ones, an LB7 is 512kb and LML is 3200kb, so there is a lot more going on, LB7 have no CAN, no real emissions and a Simple DTC Routine.
My thinking is it will be broken at some point, the cost will be rather high due to the ROI on investment that has to be recovered.
Just doing simple math, even if someone invested $1 Million to get it done, the ROI would be selling a tune for $2500 to 400 people, which some would pay that and many more would.
Once you get a ROI repaid, then its all gravy...........last time I check 1000/$1000 is a MILLION $$$$$
Whomever comes out with it stands to make a lot of $$$$$$$$$, that is if they get to keep it...........GM and the EPA have almost unlimited funds, if they cannot force you out of business they sure can damage your bottom line enough to dissuade you.
And I think at the end of the day the risk vs. reward may keep this process from being viable, as any business will tell you that the risk has to be worth the reward.
There are other ways to invest and make $$$$$, that will keep you out of jail and out of lawsuits.
I am waiting to see what if anything will come of the efforts, and how long after something is released, before that company becomes a target or is hit by either GM or he EPA...........all it takes is a cease and desist, and you are months fighting in court to get to a hearing, then after that, if it goes to trial its months of prep and $100,000 of thousands in legal fees............all the while you cannot sell the product or provide the service and are bleeding capitol.
My investment to get into LML Tuning was north of $10K..........just to be able to obtain proper base files, a time consuming process.
The new OS are not like the old ones, an LB7 is 512kb and LML is 3200kb, so there is a lot more going on, LB7 have no CAN, no real emissions and a Simple DTC Routine.
My thinking is it will be broken at some point, the cost will be rather high due to the ROI on investment that has to be recovered.
Just doing simple math, even if someone invested $1 Million to get it done, the ROI would be selling a tune for $2500 to 400 people, which some would pay that and many more would.
Once you get a ROI repaid, then its all gravy...........last time I check 1000/$1000 is a MILLION $$$$$
Whomever comes out with it stands to make a lot of $$$$$$$$$, that is if they get to keep it...........GM and the EPA have almost unlimited funds, if they cannot force you out of business they sure can damage your bottom line enough to dissuade you.
And I think at the end of the day the risk vs. reward may keep this process from being viable, as any business will tell you that the risk has to be worth the reward.
There are other ways to invest and make $$$$$, that will keep you out of jail and out of lawsuits.
I am waiting to see what if anything will come of the efforts, and how long after something is released, before that company becomes a target or is hit by either GM or he EPA...........all it takes is a cease and desist, and you are months fighting in court to get to a hearing, then after that, if it goes to trial its months of prep and $100,000 of thousands in legal fees............all the while you cannot sell the product or provide the service and are bleeding capitol.
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im not saying they are, im saying it can be done and will start to be implemented in the very near future. Maybe not on the current model years but later will be. Case in point, look at alllllllllllll the features On-star can do for you
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im not saying they are, im saying it can be done and will start to be implemented in the very near future. Maybe not on the current model years but later will be. Case in point, look at alllllllllllll the features On-star can do for you
I was reading some stuff about 5g internet and one of the articles was about just this!
Being able to update vehicles wirelessly... mostly relating to autonomous vehicles but that’s still pretty far off.
im not saying they are, im saying it can be done and will start to be implemented in the very near future. Maybe not on the current model years but later will be. Case in point, look at alllllllllllll the features On-star can do for you
I think if implemented, it would be through the OnStar system.
Just needs to have a small non-volatile flash memory for the update to download into. Then when starting the vehicle the update will load up
I wouldn't be surprised if it went something like XM radio. With the activation and deactivation being rebroadcast at intervals for a year or more. This way "unauthorized" tunes will almost never last.
Then there will be a growing number of threads on how to disable the reciever, antenna or update system
The speed limiter used to some how reappear on my LMM. I think GM has been playing with on star updates for quite some time...