injectors = broken crank ?

McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
11,249
26
38
64
Norco CA
www.mcratracing.com
...
Ps. You're paying retail on parts you test is a lie. I know a lot of the people you deal with and they like me better thn you. You really got me on not being public on anything I've tested.....Mike is the only one doing any trans R&D....I just copy....give me a break.

You have a problem reading.

Now you need to bring Mike L into it?

I've bought retail parts from all those shops I listed, and many, many others. My first trans from Mike L was a retail trans job. You can't judge a shop who's trying to pimp you out.

Now I have a brick building, business license, insurance, etc, for McRat Racing, I can buy parts cheaper than I could before.

And I also do get some parts for free nowadays, but it's rare. Usually in exchange for detailed testing or in exchange for tuning data.

The shops I endorse have an excellent track record, because I do my homework, not because I'm whoring for freebies as you seem to think.

Now who else do you want to bring into your slam thread? Let's stick to PARTS and TECH instead. Vendor wars do not belong on this site.
 

RickDLance

Active member
Feb 14, 2007
1,276
14
38
Don't kid yourself guys. The only reason GM adjusts the balance at idle is to help keep the end customer from complaining that their truck is idling rough. ;)

Controlling the balance rate at high rpm is important enough that most of the "professional" classes of race cars have the ability to tune each and every cylinder.
 

McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
11,249
26
38
64
Norco CA
www.mcratracing.com
George,

I don't know why you decided to fire off on me in this thread, nor is it important.

What is important, is that you stop picking on members here. You should discuss tech without it. It adds nothing to the discussion.
 

stacks04

Member
Nov 16, 2007
792
0
16
Terryville,Ct
imo if balancing rates were adjusted at higher rpms than they would have made the tech2 able to read them. idle smoothness and diesel noise are 2 things gm went after in making this engine, mostly for customer satisfaction. i doubt highly gm ever anticipated (based on the 6.5 performance industry) the d max would ever be making 1000+ hp on stock cranks, or most anything done to these trucks for that matter. the stock tuning does very well, and aside from the first gen injectors they have been relatively problem free. dont read to much into balancing rates.

as far as driven components off the crank, under the cover you have the waterpump, cp3, oil pump and cam gear. outside you have the alt, ac comp, power st pump, and some idlers. some have the mitusa and extra cp3 also.

doubt the added load of a cp3 is the cause do to the stock setups breaking as well. not much changing.

is it possible that it is just manufacturing issues. i say this because maybe youg uys are chasing a "problem" that just isnt there. and the need for better performance cranks is the solution.

here at the shop we have seen probably 6 or 7 2500/3500 series g-vans with the 6.0 liter have snapped cranks. no performance enhancers there either. yet to see one in the 6.0l pickups though. not sure if the cranks are made from a differant supplier.
 

malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
8,231
548
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in the buckeye state
mine ripped behind the #1 through.. starting from the back side to the front side of the web. going in the direction of the normanl crank rotation..


how does a nozzle that is over fueling a cylinder different then a dead cylinder?

the RA is balanced with no compression resistance let alone the added force from compression or igntion pressure...

to say that a crank is sololy destroyed by an overfueling nozzle... IMO is kinda silly..... since each power stroke (technically) unbalances the RA creating new/different harmonics in the RA then with the RA was staticly balanced.

now i can see a crank ripping IF
1. two or more nozzles fired on a power stroke... effectively twisting the crank in 2 directions..
2. the harmonic wave of the crank forces the journals into the bearings thus causeing the crank to rip from metal to metal contact
 

Turbotug

BEER SLAYER
Sep 3, 2006
1,019
1
38
46
Phoenix
I imagine a drive belt would brake long before the load from the driven accessories would brake the crank snout.
 

Randy5.0

MAKE IT 3 YDS MF
Sep 7, 2008
292
0
0
What I disagree on is when they are not matched very well you may have different cylinder pressures but the constant load on the crank per cylinder should be close to the same otherwise I believe that by applying different loads to different crank journals at high rpms, making big power will cause the harmonics to go off even with a balanced assembly leading to catastrophic failure.

I like GMC's theory the best.

Racing engines have balanced rotating assemblies to relieve stress, making it easier to live at a higher RPM and make more power. I believe that the uneven cylinder pressures at high RPM would be the same as spinning an unbalanced rotating assembly to high RPM. It just can't last.
I also think that NASCAR engine builders spend a lot of time matching output from cylinder to cylinder for this reason. I've seen one engine with 8 slightly different hand shaped domes on the pistons, and the chambers of the heads were matched this way also. When I asked why, the answer was "we treat each cylinder like its an individual engine, except they all have to make the exact same power".

-Randy
 

Trippin

SoCal Diesel
Aug 10, 2006
663
2
0
Sorry guys, I'm so damn busy I don't have much time to hit the boards as much as I used to.

Here is my humble opinion.

For those that don’t know me, my research in engine harmonics goes back to 1994 when I did battle against Fluid Damper on failed cranks, rods and bearings in NASCAR engines.

You can destroy anything by inducing the right harmonic. This can occur if the engine is balanced for a different rpm than which it is operating in. This can also occur as a result of uneven firing pulses. Or perhaps a combination of both and exponentially more cylinder pressure than the crank was ever designed for.

Every engine has naturally occurring harmonics as result of just rotating the engine, now add firing pulses to the mix and the equation just became far more complicated. Induce just the right harmonic or combination of harmonics at the right time, under the right circumstances and bingo we have a broken crank. A “Perfect Storm” scenario.

“Balancing” a crankshaft by attaching weights to the crank to simulate the piston and rod assembly weight, and then spinning it on a machine that senses vibration is nothing more than an attempt to tune these harmonics to occur at an rpm other than where we are going to operate the engine. The crankshaft is never really balanced for all rpms, it is just better in some and worse in others. The key is to make sure the really severe harmonics occur at an rpm in which we won’t be operating. This just targets the rotating assembly and has nothing to do with the harmonics occurring as a result of the firing pulses.

With each firing pulse, energy is transferred through the piston and rod into the crank. Studies have shown that the rod throw on the crank actually deflects and twists, then springs back past it‘s normal orientation, in an ever decreasing fashion until the next firing pulse for that cylinder or the next cylinder attached to that same rod throw, and then the whole nightmare repeats itself. Look up “resonant frequencies” and/or “oscillations” etc. for more in depth explanations. These pulses also send harmonics through the crankshaft.

Greater cylinder pressures can generate greater amounts of twist for a given crankshaft. Increasing the twist past the crankshaft’s limit, results in crankshaft failure. Kind of like bending a piece of metal back and forth until it finally breaks or cracks.

What I find very interesting is the fact that most of the crank failures occur in the same spot. Usually, right behind the first rod throw intersecting the second main journal.

This would indicate an area of concentration for the above described harmonics, whether they are injector related or balance related or both.

We can’t always control these harmonics, as in an injector pulse varying over the life of the injector. The next best thing is to try and absorb and dissipate them, as in the use of a harmonic damper. Dampers can be tuned for specific rpms, power levels, etc using a variety of factors.

Bosch has a specific test procedure for the Dmax injectors. The injector is flow tested at various pressures and pulse widths that simulate real world parameters the injector will see during use. The injector must be within 5% of a target value at each data point in order to past the Bosch test. We typically control our modified injectors to less than 3%, and a very specific spray pattern. Some injectors work great at idle and go away in the mid range, some just the opposite. An uneven firing pulse at any of these levels could be just the thing that burns a piston or breaks a crank. I have tested other modified injectors that were 30% different within the set, the spray patterns were as uneven as the flow would indicate.

The customers never suspected their injectors were that far off from their seat of the pants feel, until the engine failed.

Spinning off the tips and having them extrude honed and reinstalling them without properly flow testing and calibrating is just one giant gamble no matter how you look at it. Some will win, some will lose. It is your engine, your decision. Some shops use air to flow test the tips. Some shops test the entire injector using some test they concocted to fit their test equipment that really isn’t designed for common rail injectors but was instead adapted over. Both result in tests that mean nothing. The injectors need to be tested under the same parameters and pulse widths they will experience in the field, anything less or different is just plain useless info.

Nothing is 100%. The “Perfect Storm” can occur at any time and routinely does in all forms of racing. At best all we can do is take the necessary steps in order to minimize the chance that it will occur.

Guy
 

dmaxvaz

wannabe puller
Nov 22, 2006
1,132
0
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METRO DETROIT
A few things I would like to see:

1. Matt post as he was the one "referencing" the injectors being at fault for the crank.
2. A flow sheet showing how well a stock set of injectors are balanced.
3. A "matched complete in jector" flow sheet after it has 10k miles on it.

There are some certanties in some of the things that have been posted here. While some get scared and intimidated on the net and others choose to argue...I find myself wondering why I got in this to begin with. When people who are uninformed and inexperienced start making inuenods, others get screwed. The simple fact here is that crank has been through some SERIOUS abuse. Since Jay has twins, it is able to make the bottom end torque that others don't and still have the top end that the masses do while getting it all down the track in a 7k truck.

I never liked getting into injector discussion because it always seem to lead to some sort of friendship ending argument in the Dmax community. I stand by everything I have posted and learned over the past years, but it sure is funny how the people who were always against them saying they didn't need them or they saw no gain are jumping ship. I try to keep an open mind when it comes to new ideas and experiences and let the proof be in the pudding. Ask anyone who calls me to hash out a new idea and they will tell you that I argue it with them just to get all the angles....the crank broke and the injectors are fine, a bit small, but fine....it is what it is.

I don't think the ECM is compensating in the RPM range either, I feel it is at idle for "driver comfort". Remember diesels had a pretty bad rap a few years ago and the big 3 have been trying to get rid of all the drawbacks to make them more user friendly. I was just throwing out possibilities that we really don't have the answers to.

Pat, as far as the metal fatigue, it's racing. The idea is to make HP and as much as you can.....metal fatigue is going to be there no matter any other circumstances. Having a complete set of injectors will not change that....which is the reason this discussion started. I am open to discussion or proof showing otherwise.... The harmonics thing could be beat until we are all dead....everything going on in the truck will affect it...all the way to the bumps in the track. How would that compare to BB Chevy plated to a dragster? Could you really tell me that gas flowing through a carburetor evenly distributes to all the cylinders and that crank acceleration is linear and smoother?
this is what i was thinking about today at work, and also the way our intakes are on our trucks. the cylinders dont/may not get the same flow to each of them
 

SteveFord

What's Next?
May 8, 2008
1,317
0
36
Iowa
George,

I don't know why you decided to fire off on me in this thread, nor is it important.

What is important, is that you stop picking on members here. You should discuss tech without it. It adds nothing to the discussion.

Pat i dont see it as picking on members but as wanting proof of his statement as I would like to see also. If a member being a vendor or just the average guy makes a statement and it's technical they might want some proof to back up said statement if someone asks for it. Nothing wrong with questioning someones opinion, ideas, or statements in my mind but there is alot of new vendors that have poped up that just sell parts, and thats it which there is nothing wrong with that, but if they post tech, some proof would be nice. If people started spouting off tech with no proof and they haven't been around a long time or have anything to do with mechanical side of these trucks then we learn nothing. I like proof from any statement and being around racing almost all my life you get your fare share of bs from people.
Back on topic....can someone get a list of broken cranks and share where it's exactly happening at no matter what power level?
 
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McRat

Diesel Hotrodder
Aug 2, 2006
11,249
26
38
64
Norco CA
www.mcratracing.com
Pat i dont see it as picking on members but as wanting proof of his statement as I would like to see also. If a member being a vendor or just the average guy makes a statement and it's technical they might want some proof to back up said statement if someone asks for it. Nothing wrong with questioning someones opinion, ideas, or statements in my mind but there is alot of new vendors that have poped up that just sell parts, and thats it which there is nothing wrong with that, but if they post tech, some proof would be nice. If people started spouting off tech with no proof and they haven't been around a long time or have anything to do with mecnical side of these trucks then we learn nothing. I like proof from any statement and being around racing almost all my life you get your fare share of bs from people.
Back on topic....can someone get a list of broken cranks and share where it's exactly happening at no matter what power level?

The party in question had already replied in the earlier thread. Done.

If I post in a thread to "back off", I'm doing it for a reason. He wanted to start a fight so bad, that after I posted back off, he threw a jab at me to get a response. Bingo, got his wish.

This thread was originally aimed at slamming another member, but it turned into a tech thread. Happens alot. So if it is to be a tech thread, the personal vendettas must stop.
 
Dec 2, 2006
1,696
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TN
Pat i dont see it as picking on members but as wanting proof of his statement as I would like to see also. If a member being a vendor or just the average guy makes a statement and it's technical they might want some proof to back up said statement if someone asks for it. Nothing wrong with questioning someones opinion, ideas, or statements in my mind but there is alot of new vendors that have poped up that just sell parts, and thats it which there is nothing wrong with that, but if they post tech, some proof would be nice. If people started spouting off tech with no proof and they haven't been around a long time or have anything to do with mecnical side of these trucks then we learn nothing. I like proof from any statement and being around racing almost all my life you get your fare share of bs from people.
Back on topic....can someone get a list of broken cranks and share where it's exactly happening at no matter what power level?

X2.. Totally agree. Nothing wrong asking for somebody to back up a statement.
 

duramaximizer

#1 Abuse Enabler ;)
May 4, 2008
1,187
1
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Edgerton, Ohio
Well I'll add that my dad broke a crank with stock everything and minor progamming based on my Sig. LB7. No lift pump; stock trans etc.

Please note that all of the injector balance rates were fine per the computer, and then when the trucks engine was sent back to the duramax plant for inspection and warrantee, they stated that all of the injectors except 1 were junk by their standards.

Also none of the glow plugs were functioning yet that truck started normal in subzero weather.

The truck also got poor mileage stock 12-13 (from the day it was new) and 14-15 tuned. The same truck with a new engine and stock programming gets 16 same load same trips to town?

FWIW
 

maine04max

New member
Dec 11, 2008
1,009
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isnt there a list for engine failures on here ??? I know its not crank failures but ...... its a start
 

SIKDMAX

Highway Burnouts!
Sep 14, 2007
4,698
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Central Coast, Cali
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Phew... what a read.

Sorry I havent been able to reply since I Saw this yesterday.... I worked 9 hours yesterday 11 hours today and had to move a Bendpak lift from my house to the shop and get it ready to install in the morning by the crew coming, and im still not done, but time to reply.


I agree no problem with asking someone to back up their statements as mentioned above. Also for the record, I dont sell SoCal injector or his services, so this is not me pimping a product.

I just got through with an almost $20k engine build with Guy, and one item we discussed in detail was injectors. I went with 60% that he suggested, and talked to me about flow testing, something I had brought up earlier. He told me for a few hundred more $$ flow testing under real world scenarios would be performed.... also recommended it to be the safest for my "max effort" engine. No problems with me - piece of mind. Same reason I went with the Custom 625 head studs for when I run twins and want to turn it up, etc - piece of mind and the mentality of do it once, do it right.

So was Guy just lying to me... trying to make a sale? Heck I didnt even get a flowsheet on the injectors, maybe it wasnt done. Some of you may think that - but I sure dont and I dont see how anyone in their right mind would think someone of that reputation would mislead a customer.

George, you are very knowledgeable in the dmax world and I look up to you because of that - sorry that you think Im cheerleading or spewing bullshit out my mouth - thats not the case. I Figure that if I can help another "max effort" truck rule out any possible issues that would cause another catstrophic failure, he would be all for it.
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,715
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48
White Oak, PA
The hardest worked main journal is the one between the first and second throw. With our firing sequence, this one gets the honor of transmitting the most torque. It has the trifecta of two cylinders firing in sequence, the load from the flywheel, AND it is pushing the rest of the pistons through their cycle.

But, what do I know...
 

duratothemax

<--- slippery roads
Aug 28, 2006
7,139
10
0
Wyoming
Matt what is your opinion on what the rest of us young'ins (with less than 20,000$ to spend) should do for injectors? Run stock (which arent flow tested) or run [not flow tested] aftermarket injectors? :confused:

Just curious...

ben
 

SIKDMAX

Highway Burnouts!
Sep 14, 2007
4,698
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37
Central Coast, Cali
www.sikdmax.com
Hmmm good question. It seems serious but I think you have a catch somewhere :rofl:

Pat proved you can do 800hp on stock sticks. Now like you said they arent flowed (but Pat said Bosch test procedures when new are within 5%. )

Whrn I looked into Extrude Hone I think it was like $48 an injector and then shipping so like $400. I think my injectors done from Guy were a little under $1000. There have been several threads the last few months arguing back and forth about the issue - I decided to play it safe. Same reason I went with other random upgrades like ARP rocker tree studs - insurance that no stupid little item is going to cause some sort of large failure.

Im blessed with a job thats allowing me to make my truck payment still every month and next month have the motor all paid off.... so I wasnt as worried about it taking a bit longer and upgrading a few more parts. Now of course Ive slacked off like an idiot for about 3 of those months, but it sthould be coming together quickly now.

So to answer the question I cant say Im positive one way or the other. Im trying for more of a max effort engine build, so I decided to do them. It seems like you can go far with 2xcp3 and stocks though.