LML Fooling Urea

[WolfLMM]

Sorry, no, it doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec

Urea is used to reduce the NOx, the DPF is to trap the particulate.

The Urea is injected into the exahust, particulate matter is generated in the combustion chanber. Injecting Urea into the exahust is not going to magicly make soot dissapear. oke:

Your source is wikipedia? Nuff said.

Tip educate yourself on the formation of nox and soot particles, you will see the relationship.

 

[Cougar281]

Your source is wikipedia? Nuff said.

Tip educate yourself on the formation of nox and soot particles, you will see the relationship.

Ummm..... BOTH are formed INSIDE the engine (NOx is generated from high heat, hence the EGR to cool the combustion process and reduce the formation of NOx, and the soot is the result of incomplete combustion of fuel)..... Urea is injected into the exahust between the DOC & SCR to break down the NOx ONLY. Once the soot is generated in the combustion chamber, for whatever the reason, you CAN'T UN-GENERATE IT (And yes, I know "Un-Generate" isn't a word)!! That's why they put the DPF there.

From http://www.volvo.com/group/scr/en-gb/AdBlue/nitrogenoxides.htm.

When the exhaust gases leave the engine, their nitrogen oxides are reduced out using SCR
(Selective Catalytic Reduction). In this method AdBlue is sprayed into the exhaust gases. The heat of the exhaust system transforms the urea into ammonia which reacts with the nitrogen oxides in a catalytic converter, converting them into harmless nitrogen gas and water vapour.

From http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyouneedtoknow/a/ag_BLUETEC.htm

The AdBlue system houses the DOC and particulate filter in a single housing. In addition to the NAC catalyst, ammonia is supplied by injecting a fluid called AdBlue into the exhaust upstream of the SCR catalyst. The addition of AdBlue fluid enables the SCR catalyst to reduce NOx emissions to a level even lower than the NAC-SCR system. AdBlue is carried in an on-board tank which can be replenished when the car is serviced; a gallon of AdBlue fluid lasts approximately 2,400 miles.

The Urea reduces the NOx, but reducing the NOx with the SCR will NOT make the particulate matter generated in teh combustion cycle magically dissapear.

Here's a better example of my point: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/emissions/epa2010/technology.aspx

On the Detriots, Urea is injected POST-DPF. Urea has ZERO bearing on soot. If we where talking about something injected pre-combustion, then yes, you could reduce soot formation, but unlike NOx and CO, once formed, it's not going away.

 

[WolfLMM]

Ummm..... BOTH are formed INSIDE the engine (NOx is generated from high heat, hence the EGR to cool the combustion process and reduce the formation of NOx, and the soot is the result of incomplete combustion of fuel)..... Urea is injected into the exahust between the DOC & SCR to break down the NOx ONLY. Once the soot is generated in the combustion chamber, for whatever the reason, you CAN'T UN-GENERATE IT (And yes, I know "Un-Generate" isn't a word)!! That's why they put the DPF there.

From http://www.volvo.com/group/scr/en-gb/AdBlue/nitrogenoxides.htm.


From http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyouneedtoknow/a/ag_BLUETEC.htm


The Urea reduces the NOx, but reducing the NOx with the SCR will NOT make the particulate matter generated in teh combustion cycle magically dissapear.

Here's a better example of my point: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/emissions/epa2010/technology.aspx

On the Detriots, Urea is injected POST-DPF. Urea has ZERO bearing on soot. If we where talking about something injected pre-combustion, then yes, you could reduce soot formation, but unlike NOx and CO, once formed, it's not going away.

There is a relationship, it requires a little thinking to figure it out. It is not straight forward. And no I am not going to waste my time explaining it. Yes I know both are formed in the CC, thats where you have to stop and think about what is going on. Dont get all butt hurt, dude.


Why do the LML regenerate less often than the LMMs do?? HUMM...

 

[Cougar281]

There is a relationship, it requires a little thinking to figure it out. It is not straight forward. And no I am not going to waste my time explaining it. Yes I know both are formed in the CC, thats where you have to stop and think about what is going on. Dont get all butt hurt, dude.


Why do the LML regenerate less often than the LMMs do?? HUMM...

If you say so.... :dontknow:

 

[Fingers]

I'm going to spray some ammonia solution on some diesel soot tomorrow. If it dissolves the soot build up to any degree, then I think I might start to understand how it could help the DPF. Sure, it isn't exactly what is happening in the pipe, but it might be a clue.

The reduction in regens might just be an adjustment in the ECM regen schedule tables.

 

[WolfLMM]

I'm going to spray some ammonia solution on some diesel soot tomorrow. If it dissolves the soot build up to any degree, then I think I might start to understand how it could help the DPF. Sure, it isn't exactly what is happening in the pipe, but it might be a clue.

The reduction in regens might just be an adjustment in the ECM regen schedule tables.

Could very well be a change schedule. But I think it may run a little deeper than that.



I'm thinking with urea we are able to run higher combustion temps(high combustion temps create high nox levels). Higher temps should reduce soot, no?

 

[WolfLMM]

If you say so.... :dontknow:

Looking back, my post came offa little harsh. This is just one of those things I have a hunch about. Could very well be wrong.

 

[Cougar281]

Could very well be a change schedule. But I think it may run a little deeper than that.



I'm thinking with urea we are able to run higher combustion tempshigh combustion temps create high nox levels)(. Higher temps should reduce soot, no?

Yes, high combustion chamber temps increase NOx, but I doubt the LML has significantly higher temps. I don't think the LML's CR has changed from the LMM's CR, and if I'm not mistaken, the LML has DUAL EGR coolers (yay).

 

[Fingers]

So, today I sprayed some plain water and then some ammonia solution on a sooty exhaust pipe. The water washed away the loose stuff, but the baked on did not move. With the Ammonia, the remaining soot started to break up and wash away.

Not a definitive test by any stretch, but it seems to point towards a reaction between the ammonia and the soot.

 

[Cougar281]

So, today I sprayed some plain water and then some ammonia solution on a sooty exhaust pipe. The water washed away the loose stuff, but the baked on did not move. With the Ammonia, the remaining soot started to break up and wash away.

Not a definitive test by any stretch, but it seems to point towards a reaction between the ammonia and the soot.

Maybe only so far as the ammonia can loosen the baked on soot? Big question is if the urea would have any beneficial impact on soot, why would detroit put it post-DPF?

 

[duratothemax]

thanks for testing that Jon...very interesting...

 

[Fingers]

Maybe only so far as the ammonia can loosen the baked on soot? Big question is if the urea would have any beneficial impact on soot, why would detroit put it post-DPF?

Just a guess on my part, but the GM system uses a catalyst for the ammonia prior to the DPF. This does two important things I can think of. One, pre-filter, and two, reduces the qty of Ammonia needed.

To me, it is just a refinement of the Detroit system. It is very possible the Detroit DPF would not tolerate the Ammonia.

 

[mytmousemalibu]

I dont know if its been said but these systems are going to know if somthing other than the spec DEF is put in the tank. While i doubt any of them at this point in time can tell the chemical makeup of the DEF while in the tank, but when the ECM sees the sensor parameters off from specified, it has pretty much figured out it dosnt have the right DEF beeing injected. IIRC, durallymax just posted about having to dump a tankful of DEF because it was too old! And on a tractor! It knew!

Perfect example: BMW for almost 2 decades now, have used an air pump system, called a Secondary air system. What it does is on a cold engine start is, while the engine is running rich (because its cold) the emissions are terrible, so air is pumped into the exhaust ports in the cylinder heads. So all this additional oxygen with the hydrocarbon rich exhaust gets the cat converters hot and very fast. Well somtimes I'll see a code like, *Secondary Air, insufficient flow Bank-2*. Ok well the new systems have there own tiny little MAF but the old ones don't. How did it know somthing was wrong? By monitoring the O2 sensors during warm-up, it didnt see the amount of left over oxygen in the exhaust stream. These new diesel systems are no differant really.

 

[Fingers]

You don't know me real well do you. LOL

IT is really just a matter of how much effort ($$) you want to put into the "Fooling". Personally, I don't know if it is worth the effort.

That doesn't mean I am not going poke around.

 

[8lug]

You don't know me real well do you. LOL

IT is really just a matter of how much effort ($$) you want to put into the "Fooling". Personally, I don't know if it is worth the effort.

That doesn't mean I am not going poke around.

x2 all sensors can be adjusted/removed/replaced/simulated, you just need to know what output they are supposed to be giving under "good" operating conditions. It's not rocket science... close though

 

[MuscleTruck03]

The first time I heard "exhaust fluid" I bust up :rofl: we used to tell my friends sister she needed more blinker fluid

On a serious note, I wonder if we could inject a little ammonia to clean up our soot filled motors??

 

[rodbuilder]

The tank has a heater. It will sense the temp and allow you to drive it if the fluid is frozen, simply due to the fact that you cant help it. IIRC

So if the tank has it's own heater AND a temperature sensor that tells how cold it is outside, and the truck will run right when it's cold outside, then locate the stupid sensor and put it in a bucket of ice, or lengthen the sensor wires and put the sensor in an a/c duct!

To anyone who thinks these stupid systems can't be fooled I hand you this FACT: If man made it, man can find a way to fool it. Anyone who thinks differently has a BIG lesson in life to learn!

DUHHHHH?

 

[Tothemax]

So if the tank has it's own heater AND a temperature sensor that tells how cold it is outside, and the truck will run right when it's cold outside, then locate the stupid sensor and put it in a bucket of ice, or lengthen the sensor wires and put the sensor in an a/c duct!

To anyone who thinks these stupid systems can't be fooled I hand you this FACT: If man made it, man can find a way to fool it. Anyone who thinks differently has a BIG lesson in life to learn!

DUHHHHH?

the problem with your idea is the ecm will know that that's a false reading when you startup coolant temp and intake air temp sensor don't match the def temp sensor bang check engine light. there is no fooling it just deleting it.

 

[rodbuilder]

no, you arent gonna be able to fool it. This is the year 2010 and ECM's and vehicles are smarter than ever. Do you really think it would be as simple as "just hang the nox sensor out there" and everything will be all hunky dory?

yes, it will know if you dont put the right fluid in it. The RIGHT fluid is like $2.50/gallon and you need to put 5 gallons in every oil change....which I dont think is too much to ask?

Yes, it will be fine in the very cold weather.

yes, the tank is well protected. I know it doesnt "look" like it is, but it is. Read diesel place. Plenty of guys in oil fields have been beating the crap out of their 2011's off road and in the woods and much to their surprise, have yet to even put a scratch on the tanks.

People need to just give the darn thing a chance. Leave it alone. There have been *zero* reports of people having ANY problems with it, its been working great, the trucks have awesome fuel economy, huge power, and run smoother than ever. Why people are already scheming of getting rid of it and dumping their warranty is totally beyond me. There is no reason to get rid of it...

If the urea/emissions setup is the ONLY thing holding you back from buying a 2011, thats flat out silly. They are AWESOME trucks.

JMO

Ben

You're so full of it it's coming out your ears!!!!

1. If man made the darned thing, man CAN find a way to fool it or modify it. GUARANTEED!

2. Certainly no one is so stupid as to think that an automaker has come up with a sensor that can smell the scent of a particular liquid - are they? So, why would you think that this DEF system can't be fooled?

3. Think about what's available to the automakers in the way of sensors: a. Temperature.
b. Air flow. So how do you think these "def" sensors work - gas chromatograph? Yeah right, I don't think so!

4. The "fluid". Someone close to the industry told me that the ONLY things in this "fluid" are a. cow pis and b. De-ionized (NOT distilled) water. "De-ionized" - as in the same resin-filled cylinder that a car wash or mobile pressure washing business uses to rinse off vehicles so they don't get water spots on them. Get that one - cow pee and clean water!!!!!

5. In so far as cow pee contains ammonia why not try a small amount of ammonia and some de-ionized water in it and see what happens? Personally, (and I just read about this on another forum) I'd try using plain ole' de-ionized water it it and see if that does the trick.

But you can save that "there's no way to fool it" garbage for someone who is naive enough to believe it, because I KNOW there is!

And if MR. EPA is listening I hope someone runs you over with their Kenworth!!!!!

 

[rodbuilder]

I read a article in a trucking mag. about using water instead of the exhaust fluid. They did a test with Cummings and Detroit diesel motors and they all ran fine with no problems just using water. I also saw the same test on youtube

That reminds me of the day I bought a brand new CJ-5 in Denver back in 1979. The first thing I did to it the day after I bought it was to take off the cat, shove a 1 1/2 pipe down it and take out all the beads -thereby eliminating the smog crap on it.

Then I took it to a friend's smog station, put the sniffer up the exhaust, and adjusted the distributor timing while the sniffer was in the tail pipe!! The Jeep tested A-OK and I was down the road!!!

So don't tell me that "you can't do it" garbage becasue an engine WILL run cleaner and better and more efficiently without all that smog crap on it - IF you tune it right.

And to make matters even more interesting, in 1980 we moved to Southern California and I did the SAME exact thing with the Jeep and it passed the California specs!!!

AND WILL YOU PLEASE STOP USING THAT STUPID WORD "CUMMINGS"? THE WORD IS CUMMINS. IT'S RIGHT THERE ON YOUR VALVE COVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!