Compressor Efficiency Problem

Diesel Pilot

Hat? Suitcase? 50 BMG?
Aug 9, 2006
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Pickerington, OH
Wow if our pressure ratio is up around 4 that's not good. Eventhough that's not the right map, you'd have to go all the way up to a GT42 to get a PR of 4 and that's just barely inside the lines on the smaller 42's

There has to be a way to come up with a compressor map of the VNT. I wonder if GM can get it?
 

Mike

hmmm....
Feb 17, 2007
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San Angelo, TX
Michael, do you see any problems with the 90 degree turn just before the compressor inlet. I wonder if straightening out the pipe any at all after the 90 would help with cfm through the charger? Just wondering if velocity through the back of the 90 would cause the charger to load more in say half of the inducer of the compressor wheel? Hmmm wonder if I'm asking the question right? :eek:
 

Killerbee

Got Honey?
My sense is that all those things factor in.

In my high tech test facility, I used a leaf blower:blowme: to blow (vs suck) air through the piece. On the inside of the 90, there was nearly no flow. Most air flowed to the outside of the turn, sweep.

The flow area reduces, acclerating flow, then the sharp 90, all at over 300 mph. A recipe for exactly what has been observed. I only came across it while tearing the intake apart to locate water injection. Brandon and I wanted to experimentally determine a good location for a pre-C nozzle that wouldn't agglomerate and damage the blade tips. I just couldn't take my eyes off this piece, just didn't look right. I still can't believe an engineer designed it.
 

LBZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Jul 2, 2007
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B.C.
I think you maybe would get a swirl like dumping water in a pail on one side with the current set-up, but I believe straight in would be something worth testing and it must work better-look at all the inline engines.


Transverse mounted Turbocharger would work best for us I think but you would have to obviously redesign the entire plumbing system.
 

SmokeShow

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2006
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Lawrenceburg, KY
what do the afterkarmet chargers do for this? I know the stock piece isn't used. Can something similar be used on the stock charger or is whatever thats being used on the aftermarket chargers just as restrictive as that funny stock piece by nature of only a limited space for entry into the charger?


C-ya
 

sweetdiesel

That's better
Aug 6, 2006
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Thailand
at work here when we measure gas flow rates, we use things called straigtening vanes
the vanes are very simple they are just 1/2" nipples in a bundle of 6 to 12 pending on the size of the meter run, but they work and work well to straighten the flow as it comes around corners, i dont know if this would make a difference? im mostly just ramblimg on

Also KB the manometer i use daily and we still measure the differential for the gas flow rates in inces of water using a barton meter

the manometer is used to calibrate these barton meters and...... the new fancy digital equipement still gets calibrated with a manometer in inches of water;)
 

Killerbee

Got Honey?
guide vanes are a useful idea in this kind of dilemna. In this small a space, it might be hard to implement (not to mention machine into the new piece). But if you have a practical decription or pics of such an application, I need all the help I can get from you guys.
 

sweetdiesel

That's better
Aug 6, 2006
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Before there was modern measuring equipment, water in a tube was used to measure small pressure changes, I think it was called a manometer. The force that it takes to move water against gravity by 1" is an "iwc" of pressure. Turns out that a colum of water 28 inches high is equal to 1 psi, and there is 400 iwc in 1 atm. Example: If you have a straw in your cup of water that is 14 inches tall above the surface of the water, your mouth will have to come up with 1/2 psi of suction to quench your thirst.

The pie chart is saying that 66% of 1.07 iwc is the restiction in the mouthpiece.

1.07 iwc is not a lot of pressure, barely enough to make us blink. But the laws of fluid flow follow that if you double flow, you will see a 4 fold increase in resistance. Its an exponential relationship, resistance goes up by the square of flow rate. If you want to predict what will happen at 65 lb/min, you just do the ratio thing, 65^2/5^2=X/1.07, and solve for X. Then you would then just apply the pie proportions to X.

This is only an approximation, but experimentally, the numbers at full flow are staggering (do the math). Also interesting is that as flow rate increases, the flow characteristics in each piece of the pie are changing. The element falls to 2-3% of the total, while the mouthpiece goes from 66% to 84% of the total.

i thought the conversion was 1"WC = 0.03613 psi?

and the laws of fluid flow? why does this effect us? GAS FLOW wouldnt that be better? the spcific gravity of the fluid is way more than gas so would this not throws these numbers out, for instance your staw of water if this was salt water it would take more than a 1/2 pound of suction, milk would be even higher and air would be less than the water all due to the specific gravity of the fluid or gas

please dont take this as argueing, it sometimes takes a bit to get stuff through my thick skull:eek::D
 

LBZ

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Jul 2, 2007
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I think your on to something Kodiak. It would be nice if we could try something like that in our intake pipe and measure it. More importantly, I would like to see how much resistance to flow this thing creates compared to the benefits of using it.

Simon you are correct as (27.7") or for simplicity 28" = 1 PSI
 

Killerbee

Got Honey?
i thought the conversion was 1"WC = 0.03613 psi?


That is funny. I needed a chuckle just now, my wife is mad at me.

That is the same as what I said. 28 iwc=1 psi or 1/28=.036

Please forgive my geek speak, the "fluid" reference, applies to gases or liquids. I forget just how much of a geek I am most of the time. In our case, the gas is air. Water is not the fluid in question. :hug:I appreciate the questions, its nuttin.

I laugh at that too, that the fancy equipment is calibrated with the most reliable pressure gauge known, using a simple water column.
 

sweetdiesel

That's better
Aug 6, 2006
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That is funny. I needed a chuckle just now, my wife is mad at me.

That is the same as what I said. 28 iwc=1 psi or 1/28=.036

Please forgive my geek speak, the "fluid" reference, applies to gases or liquids. I forget just how much of a geek I am most of the time. In our case, the gas is air. Water is not the fluid in question. :hug:I appreciate the questions, its nuttin.

I laugh at that too, that the fancy equipment is calibrated with the most reliable pressure gauge known, using a simple water column.


Well im glad you did not take this the wrong way:)...And thank you for the interesting topic;)
 

Killerbee

Got Honey?
How about a TAG?? Turbo air guide.

I would try anything. But here is something to consider. The pressure drop measurement are taken 2" in front of the compressor wheel. With a TAG in place, I see no reason for that pressure to be affected, because the flow problems that create that loss, are all upstream of the measurement.

Or maybe I am not seeing the full benefit. It does seem clear that for the TAG to work, the resistance impact of it must be offset by the laminar improvement. For sure, it doesn't reduce resistance, it increases it.

Anyway, that would just suck if something like that fixed this issue. That would make me want to go buy a case of slick 50 for cocktails.