ok well you might want to change your water setup go with a different type more for comp use
Casper Carnage
- Thread starter Kat
- Start date
ok well you might want to change your water setup go with a different type more for comp use
boy Pat that makes me a bit sick just to look at it, thanks for sharing your pictures and results. If I understood you correctly you can't run compounded turbos since there are not specific regulations for diesels so they use gasser rules? Or did I read that post wrong? I got to believe if allowed compound turbos would really benefit EGT's in a long run like that.
A way to data log that will show exactly how high the temps get would be great as well. I think there is a limit currently with what EFI can do right. Isspro gauges now had tattle tail or memory gauges that will log highs or lows depending on what you are after.
My two stage Snow system did help lower the egt's. I used it in Montana when I was doing the 10K trailer one mile hill pulls. EGT's were always under 1400 degress and I was running 30% meth and an Aurora 2000 turbo at the time. It keep the heads and pistons shinny clean as well, or were when we pulled the heads due to leaking head gasket. Good luck.
BTW what is the DT class and Production class mean exactly?
A way to data log that will show exactly how high the temps get would be great as well. I think there is a limit currently with what EFI can do right. Isspro gauges now had tattle tail or memory gauges that will log highs or lows depending on what you are after.
My two stage Snow system did help lower the egt's. I used it in Montana when I was doing the 10K trailer one mile hill pulls. EGT's were always under 1400 degress and I was running 30% meth and an Aurora 2000 turbo at the time. It keep the heads and pistons shinny clean as well, or were when we pulled the heads due to leaking head gasket. Good luck.
BTW what is the DT class and Production class mean exactly?
Last edited:
snow system are not ment for comp use. i use gal water in 300 feet so i would say you need more water but a data logger would be a good thing to.
We will certainly spend more time getting the gauges back on-line before next event.
I'm allowed in DT class to run multiple chargers. But I set the truck up to gasoline "production" rules, so I could see how fast I could go. Hence my claim that Casper is the fastest "production" diesel pickup, even though there is no official class. DT class even allows engine swaps and minitrucks, and eventually all the records will be set by minitrucks with multiple super/turbochargers.
EGT's aren't the whole story. Piston temp doesn't equal EGT's, and we have found you can do serious damage at EGT's as low as 1600 in the 1/4 mile.
We will twin Casper sometime in the future, but don't know when. I've been meaning to play with twins for a couple of years, but just have been working on other things.
Keep the nitrous
First, thanks for posting another excursion into mortality. I know we all learn from these experiences, transparency is rare in this hobby. I have an idea that you won't be able to cope with this heat externally jacketed...so I am suggesting that you consider internal cylinder cooling for the conditions you are probably inducing.
On a run like this, I am suggesting that you are changing cylinder head temps by >300F over the course of the relatively short run. This is never reflected in ECT, as the latency for the coolant to reflect this condition is at least 30 seconds. But EGT should reflect it nicely.
If this heat was all that was happening, this would be less of a problem, less troublesome. That temp increase does other (domino-like) things, and Nitrous plays a problematic role in the destruction, here's why:
When using serious boost, and nitrous, the cylinder pressure (hence combustion temp) will change in a big way, both increasing with the onset of this heat. This is because the added heat accelerates the ignition process, especially in the presence of "instant-on" oxidizer N2O. The onset of nitrous has a significant combustion-advancing impact. That is to say, timing is no longer optimum for the conditions induced. It becomes over-advanced. Without a timing retard of 5 degrees (or thereabouts), when nitrous is inititialized, it is more harmful IMO. Not only that, but power is left on the table, more of it going to drive down the drive shaft. I addressed this concern in another thread, looking for an automated way to retard timing upon nitrous actuation.
WI (no methanol) will have the opposite impact, it inhibits, or retards ignition advance creep. My thought is that if you are going to consider the bottle again, that you do it with a well thought out WI process. This way you may be able to just leave timing alone. This is because they compliment each other well for your purposes, cancelling each others combustion impacts, while at the same time, dropping your cylinder head temps BIG...internal cylinder cooling, with the likely benefit of higher power.
...all assuming you are legal to impliment it. If not, there are other ways to pre-cool charge for similar results, you are familiar, no doubt.
Another idea is to set up EFILive with a custom OS that would allow you to pull timing with an EGT table. That way, when NOS actuates, timing is pulled in automation.
First, thanks for posting another excursion into mortality. I know we all learn from these experiences, transparency is rare in this hobby. I have an idea that you won't be able to cope with this heat externally jacketed...so I am suggesting that you consider internal cylinder cooling for the conditions you are probably inducing.
On a run like this, I am suggesting that you are changing cylinder head temps by >300F over the course of the relatively short run. This is never reflected in ECT, as the latency for the coolant to reflect this condition is at least 30 seconds. But EGT should reflect it nicely.
If this heat was all that was happening, this would be less of a problem, less troublesome. That temp increase does other (domino-like) things, and Nitrous plays a problematic role in the destruction, here's why:
When using serious boost, and nitrous, the cylinder pressure (hence combustion temp) will change in a big way, both increasing with the onset of this heat. This is because the added heat accelerates the ignition process, especially in the presence of "instant-on" oxidizer N2O. The onset of nitrous has a significant combustion-advancing impact. That is to say, timing is no longer optimum for the conditions induced. It becomes over-advanced. Without a timing retard of 5 degrees (or thereabouts), when nitrous is inititialized, it is more harmful IMO. Not only that, but power is left on the table, more of it going to drive down the drive shaft. I addressed this concern in another thread, looking for an automated way to retard timing upon nitrous actuation.
WI (no methanol) will have the opposite impact, it inhibits, or retards ignition advance creep. My thought is that if you are going to consider the bottle again, that you do it with a well thought out WI process. This way you may be able to just leave timing alone. This is because they compliment each other well for your purposes, cancelling each others combustion impacts, while at the same time, dropping your cylinder head temps BIG...internal cylinder cooling, with the likely benefit of higher power.
...all assuming you are legal to impliment it. If not, there are other ways to pre-cool charge for similar results, you are familiar, no doubt.
Another idea is to set up EFILive with a custom OS that would allow you to pull timing with an EGT table. That way, when NOS actuates, timing is pulled in automation.
For LSR we are allowed to run pure water for the injection, and no fuel but pump diesel, no methanol, nitrous, propane, etc.
We will do another run with datalogging hooked up (I hope) at El Mirage, then spend serious time rethinking the cooling aspects. We will continue to run water. It is possible we will run nitrous at the drag strip again, but first we will see how fast Casper goes on just fuel.
We will do another run with datalogging hooked up (I hope) at El Mirage, then spend serious time rethinking the cooling aspects. We will continue to run water. It is possible we will run nitrous at the drag strip again, but first we will see how fast Casper goes on just fuel.
this what you need it proven itself though many trucks and they dont not have a problem running over 1500 hp with these setups
http://www.haisleymachine.com/water_injection_system.htm
http://www.haisleymachine.com/water_injection_system.htm
lots of good info there killerbee.
pat, the reason that your piston was damaged the way it was was in fact heat, but it was heat in a preventable fasion.
nitrous burns fuel completely where only fuel is present, and in your case it was not just in the bowl but out onto the crown or uppermost part of your pistons. that is why your melting was 90% in that area alone, this was caused by the spray pattern being too wide and injecting fuel on top of the piston instead of completely into the bowl, and hense the nitrous burn what was availible where it was availible........on top of the piston.
after burning fuel there for several revolutions the metal becomes soft and will melt/ and or crack. the heat soak could also have cracked the cylinders as well due to expansion and heat in that general area.
one other theory i have is that i suspect the pistons used were cast? if that were true then the melting point of cast is lower than say a forged piston, so that also may have contributed to the engine failure as well.
i've seen it many times with the cummins engines, if you spray nitrous you have to drop the timing back 3-5* to be safe and also get a correct spray patturn for your injectors, this will help in a major way, with power and reliability.
also pat i have a few lbz lly lbz and lmm connections, for any where from $2800-3600 for complete engines with low miles if your still in the market!
pat, the reason that your piston was damaged the way it was was in fact heat, but it was heat in a preventable fasion.
nitrous burns fuel completely where only fuel is present, and in your case it was not just in the bowl but out onto the crown or uppermost part of your pistons. that is why your melting was 90% in that area alone, this was caused by the spray pattern being too wide and injecting fuel on top of the piston instead of completely into the bowl, and hense the nitrous burn what was availible where it was availible........on top of the piston.
after burning fuel there for several revolutions the metal becomes soft and will melt/ and or crack. the heat soak could also have cracked the cylinders as well due to expansion and heat in that general area.
one other theory i have is that i suspect the pistons used were cast? if that were true then the melting point of cast is lower than say a forged piston, so that also may have contributed to the engine failure as well.
i've seen it many times with the cummins engines, if you spray nitrous you have to drop the timing back 3-5* to be safe and also get a correct spray patturn for your injectors, this will help in a major way, with power and reliability.
also pat i have a few lbz lly lbz and lmm connections, for any where from $2800-3600 for complete engines with low miles if your still in the market!
Random thoughts in not particular order:
Water injection with nozzles as near as possible to the intake valve. Large droplet nozzles to keep the water from displacing the air as long as possible. I have heard of at least one engine that injected water directly into the cylinder. Though I don't know how well that worked.
The thickness of the pistons is no small part of the problem. The metal itself is insulating the crowns.
The cooling gallery in the pistons is a great idea as long as you can keep it filled. If/when the oil starts boiling, it will greatly inhibit additional oil entering the gallery and it then becomes a thermal break. That is, isolating the top of the piston from the bottom so you get toasty on top and cool on the bottom.
Shallower/wider bowl.
Enlarge all the cooling holes in the piston. Especially the exit holes.
Gotta say you sure know how to take them to the limit and then some. I would be proud to generate half that carnage.
Water injection with nozzles as near as possible to the intake valve. Large droplet nozzles to keep the water from displacing the air as long as possible. I have heard of at least one engine that injected water directly into the cylinder. Though I don't know how well that worked.
The thickness of the pistons is no small part of the problem. The metal itself is insulating the crowns.
The cooling gallery in the pistons is a great idea as long as you can keep it filled. If/when the oil starts boiling, it will greatly inhibit additional oil entering the gallery and it then becomes a thermal break. That is, isolating the top of the piston from the bottom so you get toasty on top and cool on the bottom.
Shallower/wider bowl.
Enlarge all the cooling holes in the piston. Especially the exit holes.
Gotta say you sure know how to take them to the limit and then some. I would be proud to generate half that carnage.
Good thoughts but, on the water injection too big of a droplet at the wrong time will hydro lock the engine and ruin it entirely. another thing to add is that with water you should want a denser air/water ratio and by that i mean you want the water but you want it atomized like the fuel it self, that will produce better cooling and will lower the air temp much more along with keeping you in a much safer vapor state. instead of a liquid and vulnerable state.
one other thing to add about water injection.
you want to inject only enough water to cool the intake air or EGT to a desireable number, and then look at your HP. has it droped? water does aid in HP but only so far. after a point you begin to "put out the fire" remember this is a diesel and heat makes power. so there is a fine line there for sure.
you want to inject only enough water to cool the intake air or EGT to a desireable number, and then look at your HP. has it droped? water does aid in HP but only so far. after a point you begin to "put out the fire" remember this is a diesel and heat makes power. so there is a fine line there for sure.
This one seems like a good deal too
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GMC-...m14QQhashZitem120310178111QQitemZ120310178111
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GMC-...m14QQhashZitem120310178111QQitemZ120310178111
I will take the Tow Mirrors off it if you buy it.
Seems like a good deal to me. Lots of good extra parts and a motor.