Big Injector timing

[S Phinney]

You should have tried more in the 60/40 and worked down. At those splits you would loose power.

 

[x MadMAX DIESEL]

You should have tried more in the 60/40 and worked down. At those splits you would loose power.

Thanks lol I found that out the hard way!! but yeah it does look like it smoked less, even with power loss

 

[GMC_2002_Dmax]

So Tony, are you saying that logging CADEG PID is going to give you different timing numbers running oversized injectors at the same PW as it would running a smaller size at the same PW?

No, what I am saying is that if you tune a stock injector truck a 3000us shot might be needed for 500HP, but with 40% overs ( quality injectors not junk injectors ) you may only need a 2200-2400us shot, so what do yo do with the timing then?

do you decrease timing because the shot is smaller, or do you leave it the same and not chase the piston down the bore quite as long ?

Do you alter pilot timing and pilot XXXus to make up for the larger injectors ?

Do you move pilot closer to main shot of further away ?

When do you kill pilot and how quickly do you kill it based on the variables we have control over.

These are all things everyone who wants to be a serious tuner or professional tuner needs to understand and grasp, its not as easy as an excel timing calculator or something someone told you on the internet or that you got a unlocked tune and think that is all you need.

Logs will only get you say far trying to reverse engineer a professional tuners work, believe me, people for years have logged all the big guys stuff and many still cannot figure it out.

I have spent nine years figuring this stuff out and tens of thousands on dyno's and at the track looking for the answers.

So although I won't tell you what to do I'll point you in a direction that may help you all out, but in the end you really need to put in the work and time and try to learn it yourself.

:thumb:

 

[Chevy1925]

No, what I am saying is that if you tune a stock injector truck a 3000us shot might be needed for 500HP, but with 40% overs ( quality injectors not junk injectors ) you may only need a 2200-2400us shot, so what do yo do with the timing then?

do you decrease timing because the shot is smaller, or do you leave it the same and not chase the piston down the bore quite as long ?

Do you alter pilot timing and pilot XXXus to make up for the larger injectors ?

Do you move pilot closer to main shot of further away ?

When do you kill pilot and how quickly do you kill it based on the variables we have control over.

These are all things everyone who wants to be a serious tuner or professional tuner needs to understand and grasp, its not as easy as an excel timing calculator or something someone told you on the internet or that you got a unlocked tune and think that is all you need.

Logs will only get you say far trying to reverse engineer a professional tuners work, believe me, people for years have logged all the big guys stuff and many still cannot figure it out.

I have spent nine years figuring this stuff out and tens of thousands on dyno's and at the track looking for the answers.

So although I won't tell you what to do I'll point you in a direction that may help you all out, but in the end you really need to put in the work and time and try to learn it yourself.

:thumb:

damn i was just thinking and asking those questions to myself the other day!

 

[MarkBroviak]

No, what I am saying is that if you tune a stock injector truck a 3000us shot might be needed for 500HP, but with 40% overs ( quality injectors not junk injectors ) you may only need a 2200-2400us shot, so what do yo do with the timing then?

do you decrease timing because the shot is smaller, or do you leave it the same and not chase the piston down the bore quite as long ?

Do you alter pilot timing and pilot XXXus to make up for the larger injectors ?

Do you move pilot closer to main shot of further away ?

When do you kill pilot and how quickly do you kill it based on the variables we have control over.

These are all things everyone who wants to be a serious tuner or professional tuner needs to understand and grasp, its not as easy as an excel timing calculator or something someone told you on the internet or that you got a unlocked tune and think that is all you need.

Logs will only get you say far trying to reverse engineer a professional tuners work, believe me, people for years have logged all the big guys stuff and many still cannot figure it out.

I have spent nine years figuring this stuff out and tens of thousands on dyno's and at the track looking for the answers.

So although I won't tell you what to do I'll point you in a direction that may help you all out, but in the end you really need to put in the work and time and try to learn it yourself.

:thumb:

Perfect way to put it Tony!:thumb:

 

[S Phinney]

No, what I am saying is that if you tune a stock injector truck a 3000us shot might be needed for 500HP, but with 40% overs ( quality injectors not junk injectors ) you may only need a 2200-2400us shot, so what do yo do with the timing then?

do you decrease timing because the shot is smaller, or do you leave it the same and not chase the piston down the bore quite as long ?

Do you alter pilot timing and pilot XXXus to make up for the larger injectors ?

Do you move pilot closer to main shot of further away ?

When do you kill pilot and how quickly do you kill it based on the variables we have control over.

These are all things everyone who wants to be a serious tuner or professional tuner needs to understand and grasp, its not as easy as an excel timing calculator or something someone told you on the internet or that you got a unlocked tune and think that is all you need.

Logs will only get you say far trying to reverse engineer a professional tuners work, believe me, people for years have logged all the big guys stuff and many still cannot figure it out.

I have spent nine years figuring this stuff out and tens of thousands on dyno's and at the track looking for the answers.

So although I won't tell you what to do I'll point you in a direction that may help you all out, but in the end you really need to put in the work and time and try to learn it yourself.

:thumb:

Tony I believe I know how to tune. I don't have as much experience as you I can give you that much. I have never purchased a unlocked tune and revised it to call It my own either. There are many ways to accomplish the task of custom tuning and each tuner will do it a different way. I simply asked to get your response not to be talked down to like I don't know anything.

 

[GMC_2002_Dmax]

I wasn't talking down to anyone, the internet does not allow people's voices to be heard so its all just words on a page.

I am simply stating that if someone wants to know what to do then they have to put the time in to try all the different changes necessary to figure out what will improve a tune or not.

Sorry your butt hurt over what I posted, but people for years have been trying to log tunes and figure it all out, there are many ways in a tune to hide what your doing even in a log it won't tell you the whole story.

Add-On tables, multiplier tables, limit tables, etc all play a part in tuning.

Also the size of the injector dictates what can be done, 40% tunes are vastly different than 100% over tunes.

I am simply not going to offer much advice other than to put the time in to learn it, but I have never used a timing calculator for my own reasons, i think they are useless but people rely on them so I stay out of it.

Example : 1500 us at 23K is less fuel than 1500 at 26K, pressure is king, always has been, so when you tune something a finer atomized charge of fuel lights of better and with more cylinder pressure than larger droplets do, so if it lights off better do you need more or less timing at that fuel pressure ?

Also if pilot is moved around can you run less timing or more timing if pilot is moved, pilot is the small spark that helps to light the main charge and softens the main event, so earlier or later pilot or lack of all effects the way the tune performs.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to be perceived as lecturing or talking down to anyone here or state a fact because someone then might be offended, so I think I'll exit this thread.

Good Luck to all who are trying to learn this, time is you friend and so it the map feature and the proper logs.

Tony

 

[Chevy1925]

I wasn't talking down to anyone, the internet does not allow people's voices to be heard so its all just words on a page.

I am simply stating that if someone wants to know what to do then they have to put the time in to try all the different changes necessary to figure out what will improve a tune or not.

Sorry your butt hurt over what I posted, but people for years have been trying to log tunes and figure it all out, there are many ways in a tune to hide what your doing even in a log it won't tell you the whole story.

Add-On tables, multiplier tables, limit tables, etc all play a part in tuning.

Also the size of the injector dictates what can be done, 40% tunes are vastly different than 100% over tunes.

I am simply not going to offer much advice other than to put the time in to learn it, but I have never used a timing calculator for my own reasons, i think they are useless but people rely on them so I stay out of it.

Example : 1500 us at 23K is less fuel than 1500 at 26K, pressure is king, always has been, so when you tune something a finer atomized charge of fuel lights of better and with more cylinder pressure than larger droplets do, so if it lights off better do you need more or less timing at that fuel pressure ?

Also if pilot is moved around can you run less timing or more timing if pilot is moved, pilot is the small spark that helps to light the main charge and softens the main event, so earlier or later pilot or lack of all effects the way the tune performs.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to be perceived as lecturing or talking down to anyone here or state a fact because someone then might be offended, so I think I'll exit this thread.

Good Luck to all who are trying to learn this, time is you friend and so it the map feature and the proper logs.

Tony

i do appreciate the info tony. i figured you were just posting for the general, not at s phinney.

 

[x MadMAX DIESEL]

tony, any idea why cadeg won't work? I've got pulse and rpm logging that's all it says it needs

 

[Chevy1925]

Did you have the computer verify all pids?

 

[x MadMAX DIESEL]

Did you have the computer verify all pids?

Thought so. But never tried to us a calc pid

 

[x MadMAX DIESEL]

It says you need like main_bpulse and rpm to log it. I believe I have main1t dma for my pulse pid. I can't find the main_btimr

 

[sweetdiesel]

In general you would run a 1450 us tune 14.5 to 15.5 degrees at 3250 rpms. The higher timing generates the excessive smoke as well. I generally on run 48 to 52 percent timing splits on thi tende big end. Numbers are all relative to where you are in the mapping. If you run the numbers on the timing calculator you would find that you are putting too much in before TDC and would find improved results with less timimg.

without reading all these posts... I tend to agree with this post.
a built motor can withstand a lot of timing imo.
the above advice is practical and safe imo.

add a few degrees and you will gain a little power, but lose longetivity

 

[x MadMAX DIESEL]

All I care about is power. How can so much more power be made when you cause such high pressures btdc, seems like its trying to force the motor the wrong way?

 

[sweetdiesel]

Sit on a dyno and see for your self

 

[duratothemax]

Logs will only get you say far trying to reverse engineer a professional tuners work, believe me, people for years have logged all the big guys stuff and many still cannot figure it out

We've all logged/looked at other professional tuners' work at some point...just to get a start......

We (and I mean the original efilive beta testers) didnt just pull this knowledge out of our ass. Im not going to pretend like Im some genius who, when I looked at my first main injection pulse, timing C, TBIQ, etc tables back in December 2005, said "hmmm oh yeah, right, Ill do this and that and this, because I already know how all this stuff works and what these tables do".

 

[Chevy1925]

All I care about is power. How can so much more power be made when you cause such high pressures btdc, seems like its trying to force the motor the wrong way?

the fire starts but it aint no full explosion yet. the more you put in before hand, the bigger that bang becomes at TDC to a point. obviously if you start going too far you will do as your thinking.

 

[duratothemax]

And FWIW, its pointless asking for tuning help/advice or expecting to have an in-depth helpful discussion on anything tuning related nowadays. That ship sailed back in mid-2006, its a shame...

Even basic things that are extremely useful like how to use the map feature in EFILive, how to make custom PIDs, etc... Its ALL secret squirrel crap.

 

[x MadMAX DIESEL]

Yeah I agree. I'd like to get these cal pids working. Ill just have to look in different places. And I guess I will just have to wait for an engine dyno cause even cetane is gonna effect timing

 

[Yellow Jacket]

And FWIW, its pointless asking for tuning help/advice or expecting to have an in-depth helpful discussion on anything tuning related nowadays. That ship sailed back in mid-2006, its a shame...

Even basic things that are extremely useful like how to use the map feature in EFILive, how to make custom PIDs, etc... Its ALL secret squirrel crap.

That's what makes the LS community great, you can find 20+ people that will help you figure out tuning and mapping and custom PID's and overlaying maps from a wideband o2 input.... It's not a bunch of money hungry people who want to keep the newest stuff for the select few... I just hope someday the diesel community comes around, but I just think it gets worse.

A good example is the Camshaft grinds, like they are the first people ever to grind a turbo diesel powered camshaft. To grind you have to own the master for that lobe to my understanding, so who really gives a shit, the only reason to hide the specs is to charge more than someone with a similar grind,