05 LLY Sleeper Build

Bdsankey

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Progress has been slow as customers and my LB7 have been my priority. We made some good progress last night and got the turbos nested together and measured to finish a huge majority of the fabrication work outside of the truck on a mockup block. This is the placement we have decided on. Air filters will be tight but doable for street usage. At the track I will run either the AirAid track day/race filters or mesh turbo guards.
 

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Bdsankey

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Well it looks like some changes are coming my way. After seeing how well the 48re in Ryan Batt's truck performed at UCC this weekend and seeing the various issues with people trying to run fast consistent passes with an Allison I think I am going to swap. The thing I don't know is whether I want to go to a 48RE, 4R100, or 4L80e.

My guess is the truck will end up around 5200-5400lb with me in it which is light but not anything like DHD or other Pro Street trucks. I also plan to take the truck on Race Week/Power Tour as my father has wanted to do that for over 2 decades (since I was a little kit) so I need something with overdrive and lockup. I've heard there have been some issues with the Duraflite converters. I do know the one in Ryan's truck has around ~50 passes on it now and still acts like the day it was put in so that is reassuring that the issues may have been fixed. With a Santjer input shaft I don't think I'll ever kill the billet hard parts in a 48RE, plus the TCS fat 29 spline output shaft is the same spline as the 263XHD behind an Allison.


Does anyone have any input? The goal is to build a 5.90 truck that will go rounds, I just don't feel that the Allison is there yet.
 

Chevy1925

don't know sh!t about IFS
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the 48RE aint there either. you will need to refresh that trans more than you would the allison once the allison is dialed. 2nd gear will burn the band or heat check the drum, your limited on pressure you can run before cracking a case, need a full manual valve body with an air shifter to be consistent, and you will have a whole lot of money in switching all kinds of crap around in that trans to get it to hold for lengths of time. i watched the struggles when we built the cummins from the guy that built the trans and the others that tried getting the 48re to follow suit. Its not until you get into them and really understand the headaches these guys have had to maybe get a trans to last that you realize he either finally has started to figure a good combo or it just happen to hold up long enough.

id rather go with a 4l80 or allison.
 

Bdsankey

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the 48RE aint there either. you will need to refresh that trans more than you would the allison once the allison is dialed. 2nd gear will burn the band or heat check the drum, your limited on pressure you can run before cracking a case, need a full manual valve body with an air shifter to be consistent, and you will have a whole lot of money in switching all kinds of crap around in that trans to get it to hold for lengths of time. i watched the struggles when we built the cummins from the guy that built the trans and the others that tried getting the 48re to follow suit. Its not until you get into them and really understand the headaches these guys have had to maybe get a trans to last that you realize he either finally has started to figure a good combo or it just happen to hold up long enough.

id rather go with a 4l80 or allison.

The concern I have with a 4l80 is its ability to survive a 5500lb truck. I already planned on an air shifter if I went 48re to keep it consistent. I love the Allison but it just seems like going fast consistently isn't there yet with them. They will make a killer pass then not shift properly the next, IE commanding at say 4300rpm but complete at ~5100rpm etc.
 

Bdsankey

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It seems like Wade, Chris, and Dan have that 4R working flawless off a PCS. I wonder how that would hold up? I know Dan and Chris/Wade are working on getting more of the adapter plates machined this fall after the ODSS season.
 

Bdsankey

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What trans is the DHD truck running?Seems like it was getting the power down pretty well..

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They're running a Rossler TH400 I believe. The issue with going that route, in my eyes, is I will not be able to run 1/4mi racing due to RPM limitations or due "drag week" style events due to the same issue. I think a well built TH400 would handle my weight no problem (~5500lb with the regular cab) but I don't think it will give me the ability to say drive it to work for our company car show, participate in drag week, run 1/4mi efficiently etc.
 

Bdsankey

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Would a gear vendors OD unit hold up?

Probably, but then we're into the realm of "does the truck really need to have a TH400 with a gear vendors?"


I know the 4R100 has been solid for many guys but its something where I really need to sit down and think about where I want the truck to go.
 

OleBlackyLBZ

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May 22, 2020
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I'm not sure exactly what his set-up was but Rob Coddens done exceptionally well with his 47re.
 

Bdsankey

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I will put this disclaimer out now, this post is meant for a good hearted and genuine discussion so PLEASE don't take it any other way. I'm not attempting to say anyone is wrong or their ideas/comments are stupid, I want to spark a genuine discussion here.


I've put together a quick "pros and cons" list (feel free to add any I may have missed or didn't think of). I never would've thought in my wildest dreams I'd even be in this situation. My intention here is to have a discussion where people who are smarter than I am about this issue can possibly help with putting this ship on the best path so to speak.

The truck will weight approximately 5500lb in race trim, maybe less. My goal is to have a "reliable" (I know) 5.90 truck that my father and I can also take on race week type events (Midwest/Rocky Mountain/Power Tour etc). From what I can tell, the 4R seems to be a great "hybrid" of a TH400 and something like an Allison. It is a non-synchronized clutch to clutch shift will full line pressure control. If I wanted a pure 1/8mi drag truck I would lean toward a TH400 all day long but that isn't going to be it's only use.




*****Allison*****
Pros:
1) Decently reliable when built properly
2) Good aftermarket support
3) Ratios better suited to the the powerband of my triples over a TH400
4) Strongest internal hard parts (shafts etc)

Cons:
1) Still not bullet proof, killing C3s in short order when asking them to make consistent 5.90 passes with weight
2) TCM, even with the best tuning, still sometimes does what it wants (AL5 seems to be far better than A40/A50) leading to inconsistency


*****TH400*****
Pros:
1) Most reliable/proven drag trans
2) Most aftermarket support on the racing side
3) Infinite ratios for 1st and 2nd gear to dial in those two gears

Cons:
1) Limited to 1/8mi due to a 1:1 3rd gear ratio with lockup, meaning that a 30" tire on 3.42 will be limited to around 130mph and would cross the stripe at ~5000rpm, 32" tire is around 140mph at ~5027rpm. My triple setup will not make efficient power at that RPM
2) Expensive to build for the power and lockup with the weight of the truck
3) Not the best suited for say a race week type event where the truck will need to drive to each event
4) Would need an exotic solution (gear vendors?) to run 1/4mi



*****47/48*****
Pros:
1) Decently reliable when built properly
2) Good aftermarket support
3) Gone faster than I plan on
4) Ratios better suited to the the powerband of my triples over a TH400
5) Offers great tuning support when controlled over a PCS-TCM2800 plus full CAN data (if I didn't go FMVB/air shifter)

Cons:
1) Still not bullet proof
2) Has bands that can be finicky at big power/fast ETs
3) Duraflites (from what I've read) have had converter issues in the past but seem to be much better now



*****4R100*****
Pros:
1) Decently reliable when built properly
2) decent aftermarket support
3) Gone faster than I plan on
4) Ratios better suited to the the powerband of my triples over a TH400 (same OD at 0.71 as a 5spd Allison)
5) Offers great tuning support when controlled over a PCS-TCM2800 plus full CAN data

Cons:
1) Still not bullet proof, Chris @ TSD said they're breaking intermediate shafts but are working on a solution that should be out soon
2) Requires good tuning to be consistent (TSD seems to have this down)
 

MAXX IT OUT

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I will put this disclaimer out now, this post is meant for a good hearted and genuine discussion so PLEASE don't take it any other way. I'm not attempting to say anyone is wrong or their ideas/comments are stupid, I want to spark a genuine discussion here.


I've put together a quick "pros and cons" list (feel free to add any I may have missed or didn't think of). I never would've thought in my wildest dreams I'd even be in this situation. My intention here is to have a discussion where people who are smarter than I am about this issue can possibly help with putting this ship on the best path so to speak.

The truck will weight approximately 5500lb in race trim, maybe less. My goal is to have a "reliable" (I know) 5.90 truck that my father and I can also take on race week type events (Midwest/Rocky Mountain/Power Tour etc). From what I can tell, the 4R seems to be a great "hybrid" of a TH400 and something like an Allison. It is a non-synchronized clutch to clutch shift will full line pressure control. If I wanted a pure 1/8mi drag truck I would lean toward a TH400 all day long but that isn't going to be it's only use.




*****Allison*****
Pros:
1) Decently reliable when built properly
2) Good aftermarket support
3) Ratios better suited to the the powerband of my triples over a TH400
4) Strongest internal hard parts (shafts etc)

Cons:
1) Still not bullet proof, killing C3s in short order when asking them to make consistent 5.90 passes with weight
2) TCM, even with the best tuning, still sometimes does what it wants (AL5 seems to be far better than A40/A50) leading to inconsistency


*****TH400*****
Pros:
1) Most reliable/proven drag trans
2) Most aftermarket support on the racing side
3) Infinite ratios for 1st and 2nd gear to dial in those two gears

Cons:
1) Limited to 1/8mi due to a 1:1 3rd gear ratio with lockup, meaning that a 30" tire on 3.42 will be limited to around 130mph and would cross the stripe at ~5000rpm, 32" tire is around 140mph at ~5027rpm. My triple setup will not make efficient power at that RPM
2) Expensive to build for the power and lockup with the weight of the truck
3) Not the best suited for say a race week type event where the truck will need to drive to each event
4) Would need an exotic solution (gear vendors?) to run 1/4mi



*****47/48*****
Pros:
1) Decently reliable when built properly
2) Good aftermarket support
3) Gone faster than I plan on
4) Ratios better suited to the the powerband of my triples over a TH400
5) Offers great tuning support when controlled over a PCS-TCM2800 plus full CAN data (if I didn't go FMVB/air shifter)

Cons:
1) Still not bullet proof
2) Has bands that can be finicky at big power/fast ETs
3) Duraflites (from what I've read) have had converter issues in the past but seem to be much better now



*****4R100*****
Pros:
1) Decently reliable when built properly
2) decent aftermarket support
3) Gone faster than I plan on
4) Ratios better suited to the the powerband of my triples over a TH400 (same OD at 0.71 as a 5spd Allison)
5) Offers great tuning support when controlled over a PCS-TCM2800 plus full CAN data

Cons:
1) Still not bullet proof, Chris @ TSD said they're breaking intermediate shafts but are working on a solution that should be out soon
2) Requires good tuning to be consistent (TSD seems to have this down)

What 1/4 times and speeds are you wanting to run? I kinda when down this road acouple of years ago when planning my C10 build. Bretts comment on the 4R100 was that it was great on until about 900HP then they started having issues. As far a TH400 go, I don't think a GV will live behind a diesel making power, Some have used them, just haven't hear about much success. Would it be cost effective to do a axle swap to something like a 9inch front and rear so you can get your ratios into the 2.XX plus lose some weight in the truck? My conclusion was to do go with a 4L85E mainly since it came with my engine, granted my goals and build are a bit different then yours, but it should work for me. It seems like everyone picks a platform to begin with and has about a year of trouble with getting it sorted out/ learning the quirks before everything works well. Sadly its not a cookie cutter, copy and paste deal. IF the allison is working for your current goals with a "descent" life, I would stick with it.
 

Bdsankey

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What 1/4 times and speeds are you wanting to run? I kinda when down this road acouple of years ago when planning my C10 build. Bretts comment on the 4R100 was that it was great on until about 900HP then they started having issues. As far a TH400 go, I don't think a GV will live behind a diesel making power, Some have used them, just haven't hear about much success. Would it be cost effective to do a axle swap to something like a 9inch front and rear so you can get your ratios into the 2.XX plus lose some weight in the truck? My conclusion was to do go with a 4L85E mainly since it came with my engine, granted my goals and build are a bit different then yours, but it should work for me. It seems like everyone picks a platform to begin with and has about a year of trouble with getting it sorted out/ learning the quirks before everything works well. Sadly its not a cookie cutter, copy and paste deal. IF the allison is working for your current goals with a "descent" life, I would stick with it.

I’d like to run 5.90/mid to low 9s. I’ve thought about going to different axles but I don’t think I need to at this point.

I know Chris at TSD said they’ve seen a tossup north of 1600hp on reliability between a 4R and 47/48. Chris claims they’re getting 50-80 passes out of them before needing a refresh which for me would likely be a season. The only thing Chris stated they’ve fought was intermediate shaft issues over 2000hp but they’re just about finished with a shaft to solve their failures. Chris (Cummins) and Dan Zelten (7.1 stroker duramax) have had phenomenal luck (so they claim). They will be doing Wades LB7 this winter/fall.

I’m not opposed to building another Allison (mine is already sold), I just don’t think it’ll give me the consistency I’m after. From what I’ve gathered and seen first hand, C3s in an Allison don’t live very long trying to run 5.90 (or much last 6.00). The only major difference cost wise between any option is the adapter kits, the transmissions are all about the same cost (as long as I don’t call Rossler for a TH400).

I don’t expect this to be a swap and life is perfect from the start. There will be a learning curve with any change.
 

bimmer95

Member
Mar 16, 2019
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7
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Morgantown Pennsylvania
I might be opening a can of worms here but why can't somebody build a better controller for the allison?I know they can't shift as fast as some others trans but if they could just shift consistently the improvement would be huge.Is it the tcm trying to constantly improve the shifts and instead making them worse?

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