T87 Swaps

kidturbo

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Found matching casting numbers on these 2 VSS pickups I have. Since they both match, gonna say the one that took the driveshaft hit is likely bad. So it's getting the 9v test shot first.

Anyone have a VSS from 16 or newer gasser laying around, compare these mold numbers please. Curious to see if the GM number matches the casting across all years.

9853676fd30fb52d47add32baf1dde43.jpg
c3f6dae2236faef3c2ffbc855f5b4973.jpg



ecbca11328b826c3c5768e841895d386.jpg
 

Baddiode

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Mar 30, 2022
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@pl_silverado see my last post above.
I believe you have all those different speed sensor in hand? If so, please ohm out the pins between and let us know the

Found matching casting numbers on these 2 VSS pickups I have. Since they both match, gonna say the one that took the driveshaft hit is likely bad. So it's getting the 9v test shot first.

Anyone have a VSS from 16 or newer gasser laying around, compare these mold numbers please. Curious to see if the GM number matches the casting across all years.

9853676fd30fb52d47add32baf1dde43.jpg
c3f6dae2236faef3c2ffbc855f5b4973.jpg



ecbca11328b826c3c5768e841895d386.jpg
@kidturbo i actually have a new one coming Monday for a 2018. I wanted it to test against the one in my 2010 to see if there is any variance as well as the new turbine speed sensor.
 
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kidturbo

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Some update pics from 3D printing.

Tried 3 different terminal designs, and I think we are going with RT150 seal on the wire for quickest solution. While I like the OEM style push thru rubber seal on the A50 connector, I can't source it in all of chena without the complete 80 pin connector. He actually printed me up one in the pics below, but I'm leaning towards KISS principles as it seldom fails me in the long run..

be3b8abc185f7522313bd6f7c15b9e73.jpg
62b799fded296926be949d356cf3f3dd.jpg
763eebffb0fb1c2fd0c3af0fba8664c8.jpg
07e663039dcf276cb48694ef5f29788f.jpg


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kidturbo

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@pl_silverado did ya receive your new TCM yet?

I'm gonna order a few T87 connectors this week, and would like to test some of these off the shelf VR to Hall converter designs in the real world. I'll make ya up a quick Adapter Cable this week, along with all the canbus hardware so it walks and talks if you're ready to go.

b8d631cfa94807e5c93e45a979e7a768.jpg


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pl_silverado

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Jan 29, 2012
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@pl_silverado did ya receive your new TCM yet?

I'm gonna order a few T87 connectors this week, and would like to test some of these off the shelf VR to Hall converter designs in the real world. I'll make ya up a quick Adapter Cable this week, along with all the canbus hardware so it walks and talks if you're ready to go.

b8d631cfa94807e5c93e45a979e7a768.jpg


Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

I did receive everything however had to take an unexpected trip across the country. When I get back I will send you all the sensors and new TCM to flash too so you can do what you need to do. The bracket also showed up but I haven’t had time to fiddle with it.
 
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Baddiode

Member
Mar 30, 2022
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@pl_silverado did ya receive your new TCM yet?

I'm gonna order a few T87 connectors this week, and would like to test some of these off the shelf VR to Hall converter designs in the real world. I'll make ya up a quick Adapter Cable this week, along with all the canbus hardware so it walks and talks if you're ready to go.

b8d631cfa94807e5c93e45a979e7a768.jpg


Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
@kidturbo So today I came across something I found interesting. While at a dealership that I do a lot of work for in northwest ohio, they happenned to have a 2015.5 Sierra 3500 duramax on the lot. I did some looking, the new vss sensor is in fact the bolted in style instead of the threaded in style and has the T87 tcm but strangely has what I believe is the 86A ecm which made me go hmmm as that is not GlobalA as far as I know. They also have a 15 Silverado high country with the 6.2 and 8 speed 8L90 trans which happens to use the same T87 TCM. I look underneath and, look at that, the threaded in vss sensor on the transfer case just like all the 15 and older duramax trucks, after taking both vins to the parts counter and looking them up, both the 15 high country and the older duramax trucks using my 2010 vin for reference use the same part number vss. After looking at the wiring schematics through gm SI both trucks 15 HC and 15.5 3500 duramax use the same VSS and Input Speed inputs 9v referenced same pins. As soon as I got back home through the great sloppy snow we got during the day and now becoming rain, I brought the vin for the 2015.5 duramax up on Techline and with a new t87 on the bench fresh out of the box I plugged in my bench harness and went to SPS programming to look at calibration numbers to find the first time I have ever seen it happen, TCM T87 "k71" programming not requiring an ecm connection. So I unplugged the 86A ecm on the bench with it and closed everything out and reopened and programmed the T87 with the duramax vin from today, and amazingly it went without any problems and nothing plugged in except for the t87 and the mdi on the other end with a 120ohm resistor to terminate the canbus since the tcm doesnt have a terminating resistor in it. I pinned the new vss 19302667 threaded sensor to the tcm and the new turbine speed sensor 24276402 to the tcm and it seemed happy with both sensors. Wish I had a spare e35b laying around to connect it to and see if by chance this calibration was happy with the ecm as well. Wondering if this calibration is in fact able to work with the same ECM as the a50/t14 and knowing the a50 was in my 2010 originally before it bit the dust and i had to put in an a40 i had laying around as a spare, what are the odds that this t87 calibration would communicate with my e35b. Only thing my truck doesnt have that the 11-up trucks do is the line pressure control solenoid which I could simply put in a resistor across those terminals for now to make it think it is there. I pulled the t87 calibration via efilive if you want to look at it and see if you can find anything. I also went into the temp folder for SPS and saved a copy of the tis files.
 

Cougar281

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Would that 2015.5 calibration happen to have these numbers:
1705105041684.png

I had shockingly found the same thing as you - the 2015 T87 would flash using SPS2 with nothing else. The 2016, however, not so much. That wants the ECM and TCM both there as it programs them as a batch.
 

Baddiode

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Would that 2015.5 calibration happen to have these numbers:
View attachment 120819

I had shockingly found the same thing as you - the 2015 T87 would flash using SPS2 with nothing else. The 2016, however, not so much. That wants the ECM and TCM both there as it programs them as a batch.
Yep same numbers. If that’s the case then it’s something with the calibration itself and not the tcm itself. I tried used a 2016 vin first and then another 2015.5 and it only gives you a combined programming option but with this vin it allowed only tcm programming. So apparently something in this calibration set actually doesn’t need the calibration update/match into the ecm. To me that is promising as the tcm can function by itself and not relying on a specific calibration in the ecm to meter the connection.
 

Cougar281

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I suspect (but could be wrong) that it has something to do with GM not wanting to allow bench programming. It's probably safe to say that in most cases, unless you're like us tinkering with stuff, it's a little harder to have both connected on the bench.

When I powered up the 2016 E86 ECM with the T87 programmed with a 2015 cal, there were no error DTCs suggesting it had a cal mismatch.
 
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Cougar281

Well-known member
Sep 11, 2006
1,757
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St Louis, MO
Some update pics from 3D printing.

Tried 3 different terminal designs, and I think we are going with RT150 seal on the wire for quickest solution. While I like the OEM style push thru rubber seal on the A50 connector, I can't source it in all of chena without the complete 80 pin connector. He actually printed me up one in the pics below, but I'm leaning towards KISS principles as it seldom fails me in the long run..

That's pretty slick and some darn good 3d printing... I don't think I've gotten any prints that were quite that accurate lol. But is that enough pin sticking out to properly and reliably engage the connector?
 

kidturbo

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That's pretty slick and some darn good 3d printing... I don't think I've gotten any prints that were quite that accurate lol. But is that enough pin sticking out to properly and reliably engage the connector?
Yeah that pin goes in a bit deeper to latch. But then I had to tel him, the seal crimps onto the terminal also... I just sent him like 3 types of terminals and seals in a bag. Some are the RT type like the A40/50 connector which seal is in the body, and some other weatherpak styles with seal on wire. So he's sorting that now so we use the seal on wire terminals, as I think that's gonna be the easier print. Also told him we can blank out those 40 some extra holes in the connector that don't get wires. Save on sticking plugs in empty holes.
 
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kidturbo

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@kidturbo So today I came across something I found interesting. While at a dealership that I do a lot of work for in northwest ohio, they happenned to have a 2015.5 Sierra 3500 duramax on the lot. I did some looking, the new vss sensor is in fact the bolted in style instead of the threaded in style and has the T87 tcm but strangely has what I believe is the 86A ecm which made me go hmmm as that is not GlobalA as far as I know. They also have a 15 Silverado high country with the 6.2 and 8 speed 8L90 trans which happens to use the same T87 TCM. I look underneath and, look at that, the threaded in vss sensor on the transfer case just like all the 15 and older duramax trucks, after taking both vins to the parts counter and looking them up, both the 15 high country and the older duramax trucks using my 2010 vin for reference use the same part number vss. After looking at the wiring schematics through gm SI both trucks 15 HC and 15.5 3500 duramax use the same VSS and Input Speed inputs 9v referenced same pins. As soon as I got back home through the great sloppy snow we got during the day and now becoming rain, I brought the vin for the 2015.5 duramax up on Techline and with a new t87 on the bench fresh out of the box I plugged in my bench harness and went to SPS programming to look at calibration numbers to find the first time I have ever seen it happen, TCM T87 "k71" programming not requiring an ecm connection. So I unplugged the 86A ecm on the bench with it and closed everything out and reopened and programmed the T87 with the duramax vin from today, and amazingly it went without any problems and nothing plugged in except for the t87 and the mdi on the other end with a 120ohm resistor to terminate the canbus since the tcm doesnt have a terminating resistor in it. I pinned the new vss 19302667 threaded sensor to the tcm and the new turbine speed sensor 24276402 to the tcm and it seemed happy with both sensors. Wish I had a spare e35b laying around to connect it to and see if by chance this calibration was happy with the ecm as well. Wondering if this calibration is in fact able to work with the same ECM as the a50/t14 and knowing the a50 was in my 2010 originally before it bit the dust and i had to put in an a40 i had laying around as a spare, what are the odds that this t87 calibration would communicate with my e35b. Only thing my truck doesnt have that the 11-up trucks do is the line pressure control solenoid which I could simply put in a resistor across those terminals for now to make it think it is there. I pulled the t87 calibration via efilive if you want to look at it and see if you can find anything. I also went into the temp folder for SPS and saved a copy of the tis files.
That is very interesting on the rear sensor. Either that thing is AC/DC compatible all the way from 2000, or GM is playing some games with the ADC chip on the TCM. I'm just about to fire things up here and settle it once and for all.. Wish I had the Snapon handy to scope it on 9V, but for now we just gonna pin it, power it, and read the TCM response..

Share me which way you pinned the old style to the T87 for comparison if ya don't mind.
 

kidturbo

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Ok, for test 1, old style rear speed sensor to Allison T87, I got no pulses registering on the Output speed signal pid. The voltage to Pin A is 9.5v, and Pin B shows 1.6v. Switching to Camaro OS to test again.

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kidturbo

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Test 2, old style rear speed sensor to 16 Camaro T87, no pulses on output speed signal either. Voltages are the same, and I switched the polarity and reran the test. Same results... Also tested on the turbine input, same results.. However if touched the sensor to the spinning reluctor, it registered some pulses then.. Like literally grinding on it, so I know the circuit is complete..

Other note, in the Allison OS it set a Output Speed Sensor LOW code when sensor is connected. In the Camaro OS, it clears that one when sensor is connected. That's what I got for now. Gonna play with the emulator and signal converter for a while.
 

Baddiode

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That is very interesting on the rear sensor. Either that thing is AC/DC compatible all the way from 2000, or GM is playing some games with the ADC chip on the TCM. I'm just about to fire things up here and settle it once and for all.. Wish I had the Snapon handy to scope it on 9V, but for now we just gonna pin it, power it, and read the TCM response..

Share me which way you pinned the old style to the T87 for comparison if ya don't mind.
on the vss I have pin A to 7 and B to 14. But after playing a bit I noticed it wasnt actually seeing any pulses, just the resistance of the sensor to make it happy something is there, when i spin one of the 40 tooth wheels past it on a drill. So i did even more digging, so on a gas truck the vss sensor is actually tied to the ecm and not the tcm which i assume is for 4 wheel drive speeds when in low. What the schematic shows as behing vss is actually an output shaft speed sensor inside the 8 speed transmission itself. This reminded me after thinking for a minute that even on the 6l80 trans the internal tcm used input and output shaft speed sensors inside the transmission itself and only used the vss on the transfer case for true vehicle speed for speedometer and abs calculations. So looks like i might have to put some of my old machinist skills to work. I did order one of the new bolt in vss sensors and pinned it in and wouldnt you know with the drill and 40 tooth wheel it is showing speed signal. going to see what I can make on the lathe for an adapter to adapt the new bolted sensor to the threaded hold on the tcase. The new vss for the allison reads about 27.7 megaohm or 27,7000,000 ohms and the same for the new turbine speed sensor. I have an old 6l80 valve body that i just tested the speed sensor on and it reads about 26.5 megaohm so it seems to make sense now. I also stumbled onto a conversation on the ATS conversion and it seems that ats is making their own thread in vss in house and selling with their kit, now i know why.
 

Baddiode

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Test 2, old style rear speed sensor to 16 Camaro T87, no pulses on output speed signal either. Voltages are the same, and I switched the polarity and reran the test. Same results... Also tested on the turbine input, same results.. However if touched the sensor to the spinning reluctor, it registered some pulses then.. Like literally grinding on it, so I know the circuit is complete..

Other note, in the Allison OS it set a Output Speed Sensor LOW code when sensor is connected. In the Camaro OS, it clears that one when sensor is connected. That's what I got for now. Gonna play with the emulator and signal converter for a while.
seems the old vss sensor is to low of resistance around 1000 hence the low code. that also explains why the closer you could get it to the wheel it would actually start to show something. the lower resistance can generate a better ac field than a dc one. also the new sensors are diode isolated i noticed. it would test 27.7 megaohm one way and 0 the other.
 

kidturbo

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So i did even more digging, so on a gas truck the vss sensor is actually tied to the ecm and not the tcm which i assume is for 4 wheel drive speeds when in low.
That is exactly what I was thinkg a few days back when I posted about verifying the VSS pins on the 17+ gassers. They ran it to the ECM same as many older ECM's had.. IE the E35A/B, E38, LLY... And if the physical pins or CANbus is used, is a single bit in the bin file... Thanks so much. Answers that question. LOL

Post up that diagram when you get a min please. Also check the 10 LMM trucks. I was thinking it was T' in harness, and might also explain why I was not seeing a VSS on the E35B ECM. Yet I was seeing it on the TCM data when emulating a signal.

If so, the VR to hall inverter is gonna be the best solution, as it covers both requirements across the years.
 

Cougar281

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Sep 11, 2006
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St Louis, MO
That is exactly what I was thinkg a few days back when I posted about verifying the VSS pins on the 17+ gassers. They ran it to the ECM same as many older ECM's had.. IE the E35A/B, E38, LLY... And if the physical pins or CANbus is used, is a single bit in the bin file... Thanks so much. Answers that question. LOL

Post up that diagram when you get a min please. Also check the 10 LMM trucks. I was thinking it was T' in harness, and might also explain why I was not seeing a VSS on the E35B ECM. Yet I was seeing it on the TCM data when emulating a signal.

If so, the VR to hall inverter is gonna be the best solution, as it covers both requirements across the years.
Except the VSS doesn't go the ECM on the LLY/E35A/E35B - it goes to the TCM.

And I just figured out where the 'Replicated TOS Signal' goes on the LMMs. It goes to the 'VSS High Sig' pin on the ECM. So basically, the TCM is regenerating the OSS/VSS signal and sending it to the ECM.
 
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