Well I tried to meet in the middle..............

[RickDLance]

I know I don't have a dog in this fight but I really can't help it.:hug:

I can see this from both sides. DTS claims to have totally satisfied the original customer. That was their job.

It's up to them as to where they draw the line and say no to a customer trying to save a buck, which I'm going to guess is what happened.

When I first started in business for myself 45 years ago I needed all the work I could get. Sometimes the customer asked for things I didn't like or wouldn't recommend. I would explain my position and let them make the call. The motto "The customer is always right" comes to mind.

Now I don't have to worry about that so much as our business has been good to us these last few years. I can make sure my product meets a certain standard.

 

[pullsanything]

I know I don't have a dog in this fight but I really can't help it.:hug:

I can see this from both sides. DTS claims to have totally satisfied the original customer. That was their job.

It's up to them as to where they draw the line and say no to a customer trying to save a buck, which I'm going to guess is what happened.

When I first started in business for myself 45 years ago I needed all the work I could get. Sometimes the customer asked for things I didn't like or wouldn't recommend. I would explain my position and let them make the call. The motto "The customer is always right" comes to mind.

Now I don't have to worry about that so much as our business has been good to us these last few years. I can make sure my product meets a certain standard.

Very nicely explained Rick. I have a buddy that has a shop and he wouldn't have sent out parts that were sub-standard for the same reasons explained above. Everything that goes out his shop doors has HIS NAME AND REPUTATION on them. If it is explained to the customer why this sub-standard work cannot be done in his shop, then it is always the customers right to take the work elsewhere. End of story.

 

[jkholder09]

Very nicely explained Rick. I have a buddy that has a shop and he wouldn't have sent out parts that were sub-standard for the same reasons explained above. Everything that goes out his shop doors has HIS NAME AND REPUTATION on them. If it is explained to the customer why this sub-standard work cannot be done in his shop, then it is always the customers right to take the work elsewhere. End of story.

If that were practical in all situations then these threads would never be started.
Sometimes a customer does not have/will not spend the money to get it done with all new parts.

It would be great if everyone could just say ok then take it somewhere else.

And yes it does seem like when you don't do it with 100% new perfect stuff it does always come back to bite.

Yet it still happens over and over because shops listen to the customer and try to work with a budget they have prescribed.

 

[pullsanything]

If that were practical in all situations then these threads would never be started.
Sometimes a customer does not have/will not spend the money to get it done with all new parts.

It would be great if everyone could just say ok then take it somewhere else.

And yes it does seem like when you don't do it with 100% new perfect stuff it does always come back to bite.

Yet it still happens over and over because shops listen to the customer and try to work with a budget they have prescribed.

I can see how this would make it very difficult to be a shop owner.

 

[MACKIN]

Who is where is the original purchaser of the motor in question seems he could solve a lot of these questions unless he wants to be un-named?



Where is all the receipts and documentation ? A few years ago I sold a gas built engine very similar sat for 2 years never installed. When I sold it I had all the documents to go with it.

I still don't see how it is after 2 years DTS responsibility to replace the crank or have his name tarnished on THIS particular build. To much is missing IMO of the story and the ORIGINAL purchasers decision making.

Before anyone says HEY you NEVER NEVER use a crank like that no way no how BUT if the owner says USE it I don't have the funds to replace it what are you to do?

Also why did he sell it and not use it?

 

[Mike L.]

Who is where is the original purchaser of the motor in question seems he could solve a lot of these questions unless he wants to be un-named?



Where is all the receipts and documentation ? A few years ago I sold a gas built engine very similar sat for 2 years never installed. When I sold it I had all the documents to go with it.

I still don't see how it is after 2 years DTS responsibility to replace the crank or have his name tarnished on THIS particular build. To much is missing IMO of the story and the ORIGINAL purchasers decision making.

Before anyone says HEY you NEVER NEVER use a crank like that no way no how BUT if the owner says USE it I don't have the funds to replace it what are you to do?

Also why did he sell it and not use it?

I disagree. I do not let customers dictate the level of quality of my work. Let them go somewhere else as I don't need the money that bad.

 

[DBUSHLB7]

Who is where is the original purchaser of the motor in question seems he could solve a lot of these questions unless he wants to be un-named?



Where is all the receipts and documentation ? A few years ago I sold a gas built engine very similar sat for 2 years never installed. When I sold it I had all the documents to go with it.

I still don't see how it is after 2 years DTS responsibility to replace the crank or have his name tarnished on THIS particular build. To much is missing IMO of the story and the ORIGINAL purchasers decision making.

Before anyone says HEY you NEVER NEVER use a crank like that no way no how BUT if the owner says USE it I don't have the funds to replace it what are you to do?

Also why did he sell it and not use it?

I would normally agree with you Mack, but the OP has already paid another shop to fix the questioned items. Appreantly money isn't a problem in his case.

FWIW in my field, small claims court issues usually side with a Customer. Judgments explained usually indicate that a customer seeks a professional for a job. As the shop or business is supposed to be the expert, the court holds them liable for failures reguardless of waivers signed where a shop advised against a customers decisions. The courts usually will decide a shop should refuse to perform sub standard work. You are the expert not the customer.

Not that the op would necessarily win in court, he is the second buyer. With a lawyer, I bet he would win. Sad it's come to this.

 

[bluecollar]

I dont have a dog in this fight either buy have heard both sides. I do understand that it wasnt what bill wanted but he is the 3rd purchaser if im correct. It was built with the original buyer saying that is fine ran many like that.. im not here to be a cheerleader for dts but over the last 2+ years david has helped me more than anyone in this industry and ive spent very little money there.. i think of him as a good friend. I just feel it was built to someone elses request and budget over 2 years ago!! Ive seen a lot of davids work in person top notch, i live 1000 miles from him and went there just to meet him. I think that highly of his work.. the customer will always get what they want.. the scratch was im sure discussed with the original buyer

 

[juddski88]

I would normally agree with you Mack, but the OP has already paid another shop to fix the questioned items. Appreantly money isn't a problem in his case.

FWIW in my field, small claims court issues usually side with a Customer. Judgments explained usually indicate that a customer seeks a professional for a job. As the shop or business is supposed to be the expert, the court holds them liable for failures reguardless of waivers signed where a shop advised against a customers decisions. The courts usually will decide a shop should refuse to perform sub standard work. You are the expert not the customer.

Not that the op would necessarily win in court, he is the second buyer. With a lawyer, I bet he would win. Sad it's come to this.

This whole debate comes down to the question of "Would the bearing on that journal failed because of the scratch?" A question that nobody, including some of the other engine builders in this thread can answer. I know you love treating every wrongdoing thread like a legal battle, but it really isn't the case here. As much as we don't like to let a build leave without being absolutely perfect, we work for the customer. Many times we have compromised and explained why we wouldn't be liable for damages caused by sub-standard tuning, poor maintenance, or trying to push the truck beyond what it is built for. No matter what, in this case, David did his job and built a motor to the requested specifications using the requested parts and supplied parts of Rob Coddens. He did not sell the motor to Bill. Bill's shop had higher expectations. It's a lot like fabrication work. Take 5 different twin kits and compare them. They probably will all last the same amount of time, produce the same power, but they will not be as functional or look as good as each other. Just because we don't install the "best" twin kit on a $50k truck at the owner's request, and something fails, is it our fault then?

 

[bluecollar]

This whole debate comes down to the question of "Would the bearing on that journal failed because of the scratch?" A question that nobody, including some of the other engine builders in this thread can answer. I know you love treating every wrongdoing thread like a legal battle, but it really isn't the case here. As much as we don't like to let a build leave without being absolutely perfect, we work for the customer. Many times we have compromised and explained why we wouldn't be liable for damages caused by sub-standard tuning, poor maintenance, or trying to push the truck beyond what it is built for. No matter what, in this case, David did his job and built a motor to the requested specifications using the requested parts and supplied parts of Rob Coddens. He did not sell the motor to Bill. Bill's shop had higher expectations. It's a lot like fabrication work. Take 5 different twin kits and compare them. They probably will all last the same amount of time, produce the same power, but they will not be as functional or look as good as each other. Just because we don't install the "best" twin kit on a $50k truck at the owner's request, and something fails, is it our fault then?

Exactly i know david discussed it with the original buyer, it was not dts's call to use it.. would it have failed i dont believe so.. that was thea orignal buyers budget not bills

 

[DBUSHLB7]

Lol every thread treated like a legal battle. Right. Seems like some bright minds all agree there were less than desirable parts thrown on that build. Quit trying to draw attention away from that. OP insists he was promised a fix or help to right the situation of the parts in question. He never received that "help". OP dropped a lot of money and had to fix a few messes... Those are facts are they not?

Time to up the standards of what goes out the door! Question.... Had the engine gone out the door with a new oil pump and a good crank WOULD WE BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION?????? Professional does not let a customer dictate when your ass is on the line. Some things you just can't let people cheap out on.

If harbor freight sold cranks would you use one in a high HP build? F no.
Why does a damaged part qualify? Because the customer said its good to go?

 

[DBUSHLB7]

We keep hearing about how they care about their reputation... Time to prove it.
Take care of the guy somehow.

 

[bluecollar]

We keep hearing about how they care about their reputation... Time to prove it.
Take care of the guy somehow.

My question is why dts did not build this for bill and his budget..
the original buyer said to run the crank..was the scratch below the surface could you feel it?

 

[MACKIN]

So then the bottom line is that crank is NFG for any use or personal preference? That's the real question

I totally agree with the notion of that isn't going to leave this shop with my name on it when I don't recommend the action that is wanting to take place be it part or else-wise to come back and haunt.

The water pump is mute as someone just didn't hand down pertinent information as the motor was sold off.

 

[Chevy1925]

My question is why dts did not build this for bill and his budget..
the original buyer said to run the crank..was the scratch below the surface could you feel it?

So then the bottom line is that crank is NFG for any use or personal preference? That's the real question

I totally agree with the notion of that isn't going to leave this shop with my name on it when I don't recommend the action that is wanting to take place be it part or else-wise to come back and haunt.

The water pump is mute as someone just didn't hand down pertinent information as the motor was sold off.

you guys are also missing that DTS didnt tell Bill about what they did with the crank at the time he called looooong ago.

 

[bluecollar]

Can i buy the crank in question here? Im half tempted to buy it and run it in my build..

 

[juddski88]

Lol every thread treated like a legal battle. Right. Seems like some bright minds all agree there were less than desirable parts thrown on that build. Quit trying to draw attention away from that. OP insists he was promised a fix or help to right the situation of the parts in question. He never received that "help". OP dropped a lot of money and had to fix a few messes... Those are facts are they not?

Time to up the standards of what goes out the door! Question.... Had the engine gone out the door with a new oil pump and a good crank WOULD WE BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION?????? Professional does not let a customer dictate when your ass is on the line. Some things you just can't let people cheap out on.

If harbor freight sold cranks would you use one in a high HP build? F no.
Why does a damaged part qualify? Because the customer said its good to go?

It was a new Oil Pump. I was not aware until this was called into question, but Melling pumps are cast iron. DTS uses them, ports them, and has not had one fail. The "good crank" phrase is still up for debate, as I said in my last response. Find us data that would show it would cause a failure, and end the debate then. The consensus I have heard, not just from this forum, is that it would not cause a failure but in fact just allow "extra" oil to collect there, much like it does at the chamfered oil supply hole in the journal.

Not to mention, after talking to Bill on the phone yesterday, he said his builder has seen "unravelling" similar to this in many stock cranks. How many of our cranks have started to "unravel"? we don't know.....I demand inspection of all of our cranks then and we'll get some proof....

EDIT:
PUMP IN QUESTION- http://dirtyhookerdiesel.com/i-14902573-melling-m316-gm-duramax-diesel-performance-high-volume-oil-pump.html

 

[baggedLB7]

I feel that it does not matter who it was originally built for. My question is was the way it was built disclosed to the op when he discussed the build with the builder before it was purchased?
IMO.
If it was not its the builders responsibility to cover the charge because he knew it was built subpar per the original customer and that should have been disclosed.
But if it was disclosed then it should be the op responsibility to cover the upgrade.

 

[bluecollar]

I feel that it does not matter who it was originally built for. My question is was the way it was built disclosed to the op when he discussed the build with the builder before it was purchased?
IMO.
If it was not its the builders responsibility to cover the charge because he knew it was built subpar per the original customer and that should have been disclosed.
But if it was disclosed then it should be the op responsibility to cover the upgrade.

Problem there is its he said- he said.. no one has answered is the crank useable that still is the main question.. the damage is already done here.. is the crank good or not? Now i remember y i haven't been on here much except to buy parts.. almost as bad as Facebook.. now every builder out there better be ready to discribe every detail from work theyve done 2+ years ago.

 

[ALLY Fox]

I had a gas performance motor built by a big shop in Boise ID years ago and there was literally a book included with it describing every operation, every out-of-spec part and what was done to correct it and every machine operation, pre and post balance weights etc. I don't know if all shops document to that extent, but I appreciated their attention to detail. Perhaps the builder in question in this thread provided documentation info to the original customer but paper gets lost easily.