To much pigeon toe

quinton

Active member
Nov 28, 2011
1,883
0
36
Granbury Tx.
Well I was looking at some of the pics from Ennis this past weekend and I saw a few Duramax's have some toe in on launches. Lifted ones had more of course but mine was probably the second worst of all. I have straight center link and tie rod sleeves. No matter what tire pressure or setting on the ranchos, anything over ten psi of boost I start to hop everywhere. I drove a buddies truck the night before down the track (Willie Lewis's) lot more power than mine and he has the kryptonite front end and it was extremely smooth on launch. Even spinning it didn't hop or anything like mine. Is the kryptonite kit that much better or am I having other problems? We are both setup the same also lowered T bars with nitto's. This is my truck on launch
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Hot COCOAL

May the farce be with you
Jun 9, 2012
4,433
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0
Not that I think it's "not possible" to launch well and without pigeon toeing the front tires with a lift, but what size wheels do you have and how heavy are they? How bout your buddy?

Reason I ask is I'm having the same issues. The only time my truck launched without pigeon toeing the tires and without wheel hop was when I ran 17" wheels that were really light, and the tires were pretty light in comparison to what I'm running now as well. I also had the t-bar bolts completely removed.

Currently I'm running a 4" cognito lift, 35x12.5x18 with a forged (heavy) 18x10 wheel, with the c/v's flat and even with the t-bar bolts out I still experience wheel hop on the front driver side, it pulls so bad that I believe if I were in the left lane at a track I'd pull into the wall.

I can't figure it out.
I thought that my stock centerlink was flexing under the stress, but I don't know fer sure. I have rare parts tie rods along with the PISK kit and super steer idler pivot assembly with my alignment set with the toe slightly out, more cuz it helps steer the truck into corners that way but it should also help to reduce toe in, under conditions like a boosted launch. Still I suffer from really bad wheel hop and the truck pulls left if I launch above 8-10 psi of boost. If I try and develop more boost, like 12-14psi the wheel hop is absurdly violent and I feel like something is gonna break and it pulls progressively more to the left with each psi greater I launch at. Everything in the front end is new, bushings, ball joints and bearings, with the exception of the stock centerlink...and I can't help but think the weight of the wheel/tire combo is the culprit. I'm about to tear the whole front end apart when I pull the engine to look for anything out of the ordinary.

I am curious if adding MA engine mounts would help to eliminate or reduce this issue, or if it would have nothing at all to do with it?
 

NC-smokinlmm

<<<Future tuna killer
May 29, 2011
5,203
363
83
At Da Beach
Mine used to be worse than that. Lol. I was racing a corvette once and he said my front tires folded under my truck when I launched it at 18 psi. I wouldn't worry about it to much. Once something wears just replace it with a stronger part...
 

TROJAN366

Gold Rush
Jan 13, 2012
2,474
1
38
MASS
I have always wondered how offset plays into the equation. The more negative offset a wheel has the more leverage it would have no??
 

WVRigrat05

Wound for sound
Jan 1, 2011
3,081
4
38
36
French Creek, West Virginia
I have always wondered how offset plays into the equation. The more negative offset a wheel has the more leverage it would have no??

I had a -12 offset on my LLY and constantly bent/broke parts, I have a +20 on my LMM, both trucks have 35's and I cant even bend the stock tierods surprisingly, I did however bend the idler bracket a couple weeks ago.
 

WVRigrat05

Wound for sound
Jan 1, 2011
3,081
4
38
36
French Creek, West Virginia
After I put all new heavy parts in mine it was stiff but still bounced hard to the right, my angles were kinda rough though. If I launched at 10 psi it wasnt too bad but anything over that was pretty hairy.
 

JoshH

Daggum farm truck
Staff member
Vendor/Sponsor
Feb 14, 2007
13,714
776
113
Texas!!!
Post a picture of what your tie rod angles look like sitting still. The front end looks like it's coming up pretty high on the launch, but it would be nice to know where it started.
 

Chevy1925

don't know sh!t about IFS
Staff member
Oct 21, 2009
21,684
5,838
113
Phoenix Az
just beefing up the steering is not the fix to end all issues. its just gunna keep you from breaking shit.
 

quinton

Active member
Nov 28, 2011
1,883
0
36
Granbury Tx.
Post a picture of what your tie rod angles look like sitting still. The front end looks like it's coming up pretty high on the launch, but it would be nice to know where it started.


I will tonight, but tie rod angles are maybe 5 degrees negative angle. Eve with the ranchos all the way up it still lifts like that.
 

Chevy1925

don't know sh!t about IFS
Staff member
Oct 21, 2009
21,684
5,838
113
Phoenix Az
make sure your LCA bushings are still good and not coming apart. some nice polys or derlins would help. Id also set your toe out a bit (this generally happens when guys decrank their bars to begin with, since your already lowered, its not that simple). Then put a shock on there that will control the front end rising so quickly.

most of your toe issue is coming from that rising front end. you probably still have some toe in from hard parts moving a bit as well but not that should be causing all that.
 

quinton

Active member
Nov 28, 2011
1,883
0
36
Granbury Tx.
Yes they are good, just replaced upper and Lower control arm bushings in January with everything else. I out the adjustable ranchos on it and it seemed to help a little bit more but not as much as I wanted. Guess I'll have to get some QA1's. Before the ranchos I had straps on it and that didn't help either.
 

quinton

Active member
Nov 28, 2011
1,883
0
36
Granbury Tx.
Not that I think it's "not possible" to launch well and without pigeon toeing the front tires with a lift, but what size wheels do you have and how heavy are they? How bout your buddy?

Reason I ask is I'm having the same issues. The only time my truck launched without pigeon toeing the tires and without wheel hop was when I ran 17" wheels that were really light, and the tires were pretty light in comparison to what I'm running now as well. I also had the t-bar bolts completely removed.

Currently I'm running a 4" cognito lift, 35x12.5x18 with a forged (heavy) 18x10 wheel, with the c/v's flat and even with the t-bar bolts out I still experience wheel hop on the front driver side, it pulls so bad that I believe if I were in the left lane at a track I'd pull into the wall.

I can't figure it out.
I thought that my stock centerlink was flexing under the stress, but I don't know fer sure. I have rare parts tie rods along with the PISK kit and super steer idler pivot assembly with my alignment set with the toe slightly out, more cuz it helps steer the truck into corners that way but it should also help to reduce toe in, under conditions like a boosted launch. Still I suffer from really bad wheel hop and the truck pulls left if I launch above 8-10 psi of boost. If I try and develop more boost, like 12-14psi the wheel hop is absurdly violent and I feel like something is gonna break and it pulls progressively more to the left with each psi greater I launch at. Everything in the front end is new, bushings, ball joints and bearings, with the exception of the stock centerlink...and I can't help but think the weight of the wheel/tire combo is the culprit. I'm about to tear the whole front end apart when I pull the engine to look for anything out of the ordinary.

I am curious if adding MA engine mounts would help to eliminate or reduce this issue, or if it would have nothing at all to do with it?


Me and my buddies truck are set up the same. Same tires, rims, and we both have MA motor mounts. He just has the kryptonite set on his front end.
 

JoshH

Daggum farm truck
Staff member
Vendor/Sponsor
Feb 14, 2007
13,714
776
113
Texas!!!
I will tonight, but tie rod angles are maybe 5 degrees negative angle. Eve with the ranchos all the way up it still lifts like that.

I don't know if the tie rods are parallel with the CVs or not, but looking back at the pictures, I can see the CV axle looks pretty flat even with the tires all toed in. If the tie rods and CVs are pretty much the same angle, I would say the lifting isn't your problem. Something has to be flexing or giving to make the tires move like that.
 

Hot COCOAL

May the farce be with you
Jun 9, 2012
4,433
0
0
Me and my buddies truck are set up the same. Same tires, rims, and we both have MA motor mounts. He just has the kryptonite set on his front end.

I don't know if the tie rods are parallel with the CVs or not, but looking back at the pictures, I can see the CV axle looks pretty flat even with the tires all toed in. If the tie rods and CVs are pretty much the same angle, I would say the lifting isn't your problem. Something has to be flexing or giving to make the tires move like that.

That's why I think my centerlink is the culprit. Is it possible that the full kryptonite front end kit would eliminate this?