This is why plowing with IFS sucks

[arneson]

All im sayin is i have over 13 trucks for snow removal. Couple f550s and most are gm. All my personal experiences are completely different then yours. Never have broken a cv plowin snow. 3/4 i never use 4x4 plowin. No need thats what weight is for. I have rebuilt all our fords completely, one 550 has had it 3 times under 40k. If people can sled pull and drag race at 800-900hp with ifs, not sure why u cant plow with ifs.

 

[malibu795]

All im sayin is i have over 13 trucks for snow removal. Couple f550s and most are gm. All my personal experiences are completely different then yours. Never have broken a cv plowin snow. 3/4 i never use 4x4 plowin. No need thats what weight is for. I have rebuilt all our fords completely, one 550 has had it 3 times under 40k. If people can sled pull and drag race at 800-900hp with ifs, not sure why u cant plow with ifs.

and usually hanging more weight off the front then a plow too :baby:

 

[Chevy1925]

IFS definitely has its place. Desert racing is one place where IFS shines.

Oh ya. I'm not getting away from suspension in my 05. Rides great compared to solid axle. But go pick up a copy of peterson's 4wheel and off road. See how many people are wheeling IFS. Only the people who are collecting parts to straight axle it. If you bought all the tough parts to have a capable IFS wheeler, you could replace everything stock once a year for 10 years. There are too many moving parts to wear out on IFS. That's not arguable. A-arm bushings, idler arm, ball joints, torsion bars, CV shafts, tiny tie rods(inner and outer), hub bearings, center link, and pitman arm. Compared to just ball joints or king pins, tie rods, pitman arm, u-joints, and springs. On the straight axle the bearings are supported by the spindle. The weight of the rig is on the spindle which is supported by the ball joints or king pins. That's all held by leaf springs. On IFS, the weight is supported by hub bearings, barely supported by spindles supported by a-arm bushings and held up by torsion bars.
If IFS is capable then ur jeep wouldn't have a Dana 60. Do you ever hear anyone say I'm tired of my straight axle, I'm gonna IFS this thing? Not unless they have an endless budget and are using custom made parts supported by CAD and an engineering degree.
Shit breaks. No doubt. But you really have to abuse a straight axle to break it. Bounce an IFS center section off a rock and then tell me it's just as capable as a solid axle. I have dragged many axles over obstacles and say damn, now I have to paint that again.

your top quote hits the nail on the head as to why straight axle works better in a specific area as you describe in your second post. bring it out here and the view of "straight axle is better off road than IFS" is completely changed. its specific to what you want your rig to do

 

[Snowbound98]

All im sayin is i have over 13 trucks for snow removal. Couple f550s and most are gm. All my personal experiences are completely different then yours. Never have broken a cv plowin snow. 3/4 i never use 4x4 plowin. No need thats what weight is for. I have rebuilt all our fords completely, one 550 has had it 3 times under 40k. If people can sled pull and drag race at 800-900hp with ifs, not sure why u cant plow with ifs.

Ya I only use 4wd when necessary. It's mostly transporting the plow from one account to the other that tears it up. Also when pushing wet heavy snow, the snow wants to push the truck one direction while I'm trying to push straight ahead fighting the wheel causes stress on tie rods and hub bearings. You have to remember one thing: I'm in Chicago, we have two seasons, winter and road construction. Our roads suck here. Our vehicles take a pounding everyday driving. I can drive in any direction and as soon as I hit the border the roads get better.

I can't see how ur tearing up straight axles more than your IFS trucks. Has to be the driver or the plowing conditions. Are you using the 550's for commercial and the GM's for residential? Driveways are easy, less of a push. I'm plowing commercial and residential. Some commercial accounts include speed bumps and railroad tracks. Those are killer on the trucks. So maybe it's just the conditions we are plowing in. I'm only pushing with a 7.5 western ultra mount. No wings. And believe me it's my truck and I try not to tear it up either.

 

[Vrabel]

I have just shy of 200k, 8FT plow, orig tie rods, D/S hub, pitman, and axles. And park on dirt/gravel. I dont think a plow is the main source of the problem

 

[durallymax]

Fendt 900 series tractotsbhave Had IFS since 08. While itnis a bit beefier its still a superior system. John Deere also offers it.

At 3:45 in this video you can see the fendt setup working.

[Youtube]dSEcDGrpPjg[/youtube]

 

[Snowbound98]

Oh ya I'm sure. Like I said, crew cab short box, stroker motor, 6" suspension lift, 3" body lift, and 5.13 gear ratio. The leverage that plays on the suspension is hell. A buddy of mine had me do his front end on his 96 K1500. It was wore out but not broken. It was a original and he had 162,000 on the clock. He don't wheel, plow, or even put it in 4wd. Stay on the street, grease it, and don't abuse it I know that it is a better setup. Ride quality is awesome, hands down.

 

[Snowbound98]

Fendt 900 series tractotsbhave Had IFS since 08. While itnis a bit beefier its still a superior system. John Deere also offers it.

At 3:45 in this video you can see the fendt setup working.

[Youtube]dSEcDGrpPjg[/youtube]

Well, that's comparing apples to oranges. I would argue that even comparing a humvee to a pickup isn't right. When you get into industrial equipment or military equipment we are getting off topic. Those things are way over engineered and built to handle that terrain and abuse specifically. What's the price tag that comes with that type of equipment? Right there it tells ya that your off topic. New civilian H1 is up near 200k. Well, the last year they made them anyway. Believe me, I've been wanting one of them forever. But paying 100k for a rig that's 8 years old is crazy. Any newer and price just goes up. Unless you wanna go back to the 6.5 diesel and convert it. Thought about it.

We are talking about a factory made rig under 60K. Straight axle is a better work horse than IFS. Never said it don't have it's place. Never said if you have one they are crap. Depends on what your using it for. In my world, I like to wheel, plow, and beat the holy hell out of my rigs. Lets me fix em up better and replace weak links.

 

[Chevy1925]

We are talking about a factory made rig under 60K. Straight axle is a better work horse than IFS. Never said it don't have it's place. Never said if you have one they are crap. Depends on what your using it for. In my world, I like to wheel, plow, and beat the holy hell out of my rigs. Lets me fix em up better and replace weak links.

show me a dodge axle that outlasts a chevy front end. their front unit bearings and ball joints are junk for anything but stock stuff.

the ONLY axle worth a damn is the newer ford super 60 but you still have the crappy ride as well as bumpsteer issue with those radius arms.

so in the end, none of your choices are gunna last forever plowing. shits still gunna break, wear out, and give up on you no matter what.

remember, you first compared a built rig using dana 60s for crawling, running off road hard and/or mudding then said desert trucks have no relation to the topic at hand. Vinny is simply carrying on with your current topic you chose to bring up in the begining.

 

[Snowbound98]

Ok ya, you make a valid point. I started the thread entitled "this is why plowing with IFS sucks". I was showing how I had to replace everything on the front end of my new to me truck. I knew it was all wore out when I bought it. I saw the signs of having a plow on the truck. (No tow hooks, brackets in the frame to support plow, ring terminals on bolts for grounds broke off instead of removed, hole in firewall with no grommet, slice in fuse cover under good) just to name a few. I know that if this was just a street truck/ daily commuter, the front end wouldn't have been as bad as it was. And I know that I had to replace my 97's front end every year. So I made a point saying for as far as a work horse, straight axles are better than IFS. I didn't say one brand is better than others. I'm a loyal GM fan and don't mind changing parts, obviously, plowed with a lifted truck for 8 years. I just know that putting a plow on my Jimmy or straight axle under my 97 would last longer and be stronger than IFS as pertained to my application. I've had F250 as a plow rig ant that front end held up very well. Just a lot if other issues with it. I know about the death wobble, steering boxes coming loose from frame, and electrical issues.

And you mention dodge and pointed out they have issues after going to what? A hub bearing I thought u said. Yep, sure did. I've seen 2WD dodge trucks loose their front wheel cuz the hub bearings don't have an axle holding it 2gether.

And desert trucks have some of the best suspension out there. But that's for going fast and jumping. I don't go faster than 5mph on the trail unless hammering up a hill. And I don't jump my rigs. Although that would be cool. I could build a complete rock buggy for the price of a desert racers suspension. So that's kinda why I said its not comparable.

 

[Snowbound98]

I've never seen a guy plowing, out on the trail, or mud boggin a desert truck. That's a specific built rig.

Everything isn't built to last forever. But if you can take about 10 moving parts out of the front end and be stronger, it will last longer and be more dependable.

 

[Chevy1925]

show me a dodge axle that outlasts a chevy front end.

Ok ya, you make a valid point. I started the thread entitled "this is why plowing with IFS sucks". I was showing how I had to replace everything on the front end of my new to me truck. I knew it was all wore out when I bought it. I saw the signs of having a plow on the truck. (No tow hooks, brackets in the frame to support plow, ring terminals on bolts for grounds broke off instead of removed, hole in firewall with no grommet, slice in fuse cover under good) just to name a few. I know that if this was just a street truck/ daily commuter, the front end wouldn't have been as bad as it was. And I know that I had to replace my 97's front end every year. So I made a point saying for as far as a work horse, straight axles are better than IFS. I didn't say one brand is better than others. I'm a loyal GM fan and don't mind changing parts, obviously, plowed with a lifted truck for 8 years. I just know that putting a plow on my Jimmy or straight axle under my 97 would last longer and be stronger than IFS as pertained to my application. I've had F250 as a plow rig ant that front end held up very well. Just a lot if other issues with it. I know about the death wobble, steering boxes coming loose from frame, and electrical issues.

And you mention dodge and pointed out they have issues after going to what? A hub bearing I thought u said. Yep, sure did. I've seen 2WD dodge trucks loose their front wheel cuz the hub bearings don't have an axle holding it 2gether.

And desert trucks have some of the best suspension out there. But that's for going fast and jumping. I don't go faster than 5mph on the trail unless hammering up a hill. And I don't jump my rigs. Although that would be cool. I could build a complete rock buggy for the price of a desert racers suspension. So that's kinda why I said its not comparable.

smh...... i said dodge axle.......not dodge 2wd IFS. you wanted to compare front axles, well there are two current ones chevy could have used under the dmax. it would have been the super 60 or the aam 9.25. i posted about both of them and their inherant problems because you asked about a 60k truck you could buy. Now your prceeding to jump back to about your 97 heavy half that you swapped an axle under. If you can build a complete rock buggy ready to rock for 5k (thats what it cost for a "desert truck front suspension"), ill shake your hand and move on my way but there aint no way its gunna hold up or stay mid pack in todays rigs for that price. i know this cause im building a rock buggy as it is on a budget

I've never seen a guy plowing, out on the trail, or mud boggin a desert truck. That's a specific built rig.

Everything isn't built to last forever. But if you can take about 10 moving parts out of the front end and be stronger, it will last longer and be more dependable.

Well just cause you have never seen it dont mean its never been done or currently is. ive played in the mud plenty of times, jumped the truck a few times, done just a few hill climbs, done my fair share of running some decent trails and snow wheeling, and on and on and on. i dont expect you to believe me on it but i know what my front end is plenty capable of and has served me very well over the past 60k with next to no issues.

if you wanna see some purpose built rigs ment for crawling, hitting mud and hauling ass, look up King of the Hammers cars. 4wd IFS cars do VERY well there over straight axle rigs.

 

[Snowbound98]

I don't doubt you one bit. I have no reason to. I mentioned 2Wd Dodge trucks to show how a hub bearing is. They fall apart because the weight of vehicle is putting a side load on the bearing as they wear. If the axle wasn't in our rigs bearings we would have the same problem. I was just pointing out what happened when they went to hub bearings on an axle. On solid axle there are 2 bearings spread farther apart and can take the load better.

I keep going back to my 97 because that is what I have that has been wearing out so bad. And I said desert trucks suspension which includes the rear. Not just the front. And if its an IRS along with IFS then you'd be shaking my hand my friend. I could build a capable not comp ready rock buggy for 5k. I've seen people do it and they were bad a$$. You'd be surprised as to what people have laying around to build on a budget. I'm sure you know, you try to score crap and barter to keep it on the cheap.

I get ur point thou. There are people that wheel em, me included, and they can hold up well when you know ur limitations. And I'm sure people have taken desert trucks and mud bogged em or rock crawled em. I've seen stranger things.

 

[Chevy1925]

I don't doubt you one bit. I have no reason to. I mentioned 2Wd Dodge trucks to show how a hub bearing is. They fall apart because the weight of vehicle is putting a side load on the bearing as they wear. If the axle wasn't in our rigs bearings we would have the same problem. I was just pointing out what happened when they went to hub bearings on an axle. On solid axle there are 2 bearings spread farther apart and can take the load better.

I keep going back to my 97 because that is what I have that has been wearing out so bad. And I said desert trucks suspension which includes the rear. Not just the front. And if its an IRS along with IFS then you'd be shaking my hand my friend. I could build a capable not comp ready rock buggy for 5k. I've seen people do it and they were bad a$$. You'd be surprised as to what people have laying around to build on a budget. I'm sure you know, you try to score crap and barter to keep it on the cheap.

I get ur point thou. There are people that wheel em, me included, and they can hold up well when you know ur limitations. And I'm sure people have taken desert trucks and mud bogged em or rock crawled em. I've seen stranger things.

New trucks from early 2000s and up do not use tapered roller bearings like your talking about. Straight axle nor ifs. They have all switched to sealed unit bearings due to not needing service every 5-10k like the old setups. All Aam 9.25 dodge axles use the same unit bearing as 2001-2010 Chevy 2500hd. The ford super 60 uses a much bigger unit bearing. The axle it's self does not do the bearings any good on all new styles you buy as replacements nor 2008 and up gm's. they all use the same style as the 2wds, the axle will just keep you from loosing the tire right away if one does due but even still it's no guarantee. I did a 03 dodge a while back that lost a wheel bearing which in turn snapped the outer axle shaft and destroyed the knuckle and ball joint.

 

[workin' diesel]

I have not had too much trouble with my front end (that I know of)! What I do have trouble with is the brake components. Front ones are usually smoking by te time I get home from work. All the hardware is rusted, no grease to speak of. Anyways, took the plow off this spring for good. Anyone need a plow???

 

[arneson]

Ya I only use 4wd when necessary. It's mostly transporting the plow from one account to the other that tears it up. Also when pushing wet heavy snow, the snow wants to push the truck one direction while I'm trying to push straight ahead fighting the wheel causes stress on tie rods and hub bearings. You have to remember one thing: I'm in Chicago, we have two seasons, winter and road construction. Our roads suck here. Our vehicles take a pounding everyday driving. I can drive in any direction and as soon as I hit the border the roads get better.

I can't see how ur tearing up straight axles more than your IFS trucks. Has to be the driver or the plowing conditions. Are you using the 550's for commercial and the GM's for residential? Driveways are easy, less of a push. I'm plowing commercial and residential. Some commercial accounts include speed bumps and railroad tracks. Those are killer on the trucks. So maybe it's just the conditions we are plowing in. I'm only pushing with a 7.5 western ultra mount. No wings. And believe me it's my truck and I try not to tear it up either.

All our accounts are commercial. All 134 accounts. Range from strip malls, gas stations, 60-100 unit duplex complexes and so on. 2 of our accounts are over 12 acre lots. 90% of the trucks at all our accounts are gm. The f550s are used for pulling our bobcats and loaders for piling. Been around this game way to long, i have less break downs the most companies because im a maintenance freak. And if the snows heavy, all 9 bobcats and 2loaders go out, the trucks just clean up and salt in that case.

All of my trucks are also used for my landscaping business. So they are used yr round. Other then the sheer size of the front axles, the trac bars still have joints, which the one on the steering box to spindle is a weak pos. Replaced it 3 times on 2 different trucks. I would sell our f550s in a second if they were worth anything, but only reason i own them is the 21,500gvw it has. Where gm doesnt have any, not even the 4500s.

 

[arneson]

And this 97 u keep refering to a 1500? Cause theres a big differnce to a 1500 and 2500/3500 trucks. Just as james said earlier.

 

[Big Block 88]

LOL we are not flameing you I swear, IFS is what I prefer for doing what I do but I don't plow I do haul up to and far exceeding the GVWR or even GFAWR never had issue other than bent tie rod ends on boosted launches braces and tie rods saved me from that.

You are correct in the fact the humvee a arms are larger than our trucks, but they are or atleast were, just the standard stamped steel units off of an 88-00 K3500. We barried an uparmored slantback in some sewage dainage desperate to get out and not have to walk through that shit I went like a mofo resulting in a broken half shaft. Who new a 6.5 had enough power to do that...

I just want to see more of the Centerion

 

[durallymax]

Well, that's comparing apples to oranges. I would argue that even comparing a humvee to a pickup isn't right. When you get into industrial equipment or military equipment we are getting off topic. Those things are way over engineered and built to handle that terrain and abuse specifically. What's the price tag that comes with that type of equipment? Right there it tells ya that your off topic. New civilian H1 is up near 200k. Well, the last year they made them anyway. Believe me, I've been wanting one of them forever. But paying 100k for a rig that's 8 years old is crazy. Any newer and price just goes up. Unless you wanna go back to the 6.5 diesel and convert it. Thought about it.

We are talking about a factory made rig under 60K. Straight axle is a better work horse than IFS. Never said it don't have it's place. Never said if you have one they are crap. Depends on what your using it for. In my world, I like to wheel, plow, and beat the holy hell out of my rigs. Lets me fix em up better and replace weak links.

No were talking about IFS versus solid. IFS when engineered correctly will always be superior.

A new 933 Fendt spec'd out nicely will be just under 300k. If you look at what that tractor returns on its investment versus what most people who own a 60k truck get back on their investment, its actually not a bad deal. Honestly I'd rather drive a Fendt around than any of our Duramaxes. Sooooooooooooo much smoother in every way possible and way more comfortable. Not to mention the combination heater/refrigerator storage compartment to keep meals warm or cold is very nice. Again, German engineering at its finest. So happy we are finally getting one.

 

[Snowbound98]

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here but I can't help myself. Last year I replaced the entire front end, lasted 11 months. Both front bearings needed replacement again. Good thing is they were under warranty so I didn't have to buy them again and replacing them is simple enuff. But I haven't plowed with this truck. Don't run aftermarket wheels or larger tires. I passionately hate these hub bearings. I made sure I'm not under or over torquing the axle nut. I use Timken bearings so I'm not sure why they keep wearing out.

Also, going back to my SAS 97, do you think you could engineer an IFS in your driveway that would hold up to these? Doubtful.