May '23 Chat -- May-be we'll come up with a name later, or May-be not

[kidturbo]

I've been avoiding B20 if I can...closest station to my work has #2 and the price is good relatively speaking...should I not be? My knowledge of biodiesel is limited...my understanding is it is good for cleaning your fuel system but mileage may suffer?

B20 contains "up to 20%" biodiesel in D1 or D2 base. So could always find a B10 blend, at the B20 pump. Sorta like E85 is never actually a true 85/15 ethanol blend. However biodiesel in general contains 70 times the lubrication factor of D1 or D2, yet zero Sulfur content. So any amount is a plus for new common rail pumps.

As for power and mileage, like Jason mentioned, the BTU's of straight B100 biodiesel is slightly less than what's known as D2 "Summer Blend" fuel. Kerosene is also lower BTU, and the reason ya might notice worse mileage in the winter vs summer on same vehicle.

D2 is blended with K1 to get D1, and keep diesel fuel from jelling in cold temps. And jet fuels blends are cut with gasoline for that same reason. In the winters, I would cut my personal blended B100 with 15% gasoline rather than Kero for same reasons. And ran that in many common rail setups. Then if a really cold week set in, cut that mixture further with D1 fuel, because high Biodiesel blends will always jell way above straight D1 or D2 temps, based on feedstock used. Getting over technical, but brings me to the key factor for bioD, the Cetane factor.

Based on just BTU figures, one would surmise all biodiesel fuels would get worse mileage than straight D2. Totally incorrect.. LOL. Besides better lubrication, biodiesel holds a couple other advantages over straight Diesel blends. Cetane is like the opposite of Octane, higher C equals easier ignition, as where higher octane is to prevent per-ignition, or knock. Diesels run on knock... B100 lights off at lower temps and burns way "cleaner and quicker" than D1 or D2 blends. And is main reason a diesel engine Knocks less and smokes less on B20 or any blend above that value. Running on high Bio blends, is same effect as adding 5deg of timing across the board.

Last factor, oxygenation of fuel. Biodiesel contains an extra oxygen molecule, like Methanol and Ethanol. Which while both have far less BTU than Gasoline, sure comes in handy for turning up the timing / power, at cost of 15-30% more fuel. Biodiesel is very similar to this, however that extra oxygen also cuts the shelf life, and makes it degrade and gum up fuel system parts if left laying open to the air for over 9 months by spec.. Bio-Degradable it is..

So now ya know all the main good and bad of Biodiesel. Yes it's also a great fuel system cleaner. Bottled under some brand names and sold at $20 a gallon.... Leave it set open for a couple years, it's also gonna stick your regular and injectors. However once ya understand the tricks, it's by far the best diesel performance additive ya can get.

Typically you will see better fuel mileage up to around 30-40% biodiesel on a stock diesel. Above that, the BTU limits come into play and numbers fall off again, at a cost of 5-10% mileage. However the cleaning and lube factor is probably gonna save ya in parts $$ down the road.. If your into racing, that Cetane # gonna help out way more than you expect with a little tweeking in the tuning. Ya just gained 3-5 deg of timing, without chance of busting a piston because the burn is so much smoother.. Then maybe toss in a little Nitro-methane, up that oxygen further, and now your cooking with some Outlaw Diesel Fuel.. Smell those fries a burning...

 

[wydopenLb7]

B20 contains "up to 20%" biodiesel in D1 or D2 base. So could always find a B10 blend, at the B20 pump. Sorta like E85 is never actually a true 85/15 ethanol blend. However biodiesel in general contains 70 times the lubrication factor of D1 or D2, yet zero Sulfur content. So any amount is a plus for new common rail pumps.

As for power and mileage, like Jason mentioned, the BTU's of straight B100 biodiesel is slightly less than what's known as D2 "Summer Blend" fuel. Kerosene is also lower BTU, and the reason ya might notice worse mileage in the winter vs summer on same vehicle.

D2 is blended with K1 to get D1, and keep diesel fuel from jelling in cold temps. And jet fuels blends are cut with gasoline for that same reason. In the winters, I would cut my personal blended B100 with 15% gasoline rather than Kero for same reasons. And ran that in many common rail setups. Then if a really cold week set in, cut that mixture further with D1 fuel, because high Biodiesel blends will always jell way above straight D1 or D2 temps, based on feedstock used. Getting over technical, but brings me to the key factor for bioD, the Cetane factor.

Based on just BTU figures, one would surmise all biodiesel fuels would get worse mileage than straight D2. Totally incorrect.. LOL. Besides better lubrication, biodiesel holds a couple other advantages over straight Diesel blends. Cetane is like the opposite of Octane, higher C equals easier ignition, as where higher octane is to prevent per-ignition, or knock. Diesels run on knock... B100 lights off at lower temps and burns way "cleaner and quicker" than D1 or D2 blends. And is main reason a diesel engine Knocks less and smokes less on B20 or any blend above that value. Running on high Bio blends, is same effect as adding 5deg of timing across the board.

Last factor, oxygenation of fuel. Biodiesel contains an extra oxygen molecule, like Methanol and Ethanol. Which while both have far less BTU than Gasoline, sure comes in handy for turning up the timing / power, at cost of 15-30% more fuel. Biodiesel is very similar to this, however that extra oxygen also cuts the shelf life, and makes it degrade and gum up fuel system parts if left laying open to the air for over 9 months by spec.. Bio-Degradable it is..

So now ya know all the main good and bad of Biodiesel. Yes it's also a great fuel system cleaner. Bottled under some brand names and sold at $20 a gallon.... Leave it set open for a couple years, it's also gonna stick your regular and injectors. However once ya understand the tricks, it's by far the best diesel performance additive ya can get.

Typically you will see better fuel mileage up to around 30-40% biodiesel on a stock diesel. Above that, the BTU limits come into play and numbers fall off again, at a cost of 5-10% mileage. However the cleaning and lube factor is probably gonna save ya in parts $$ down the road.. If your into racing, that Cetane # gonna help out way more than you expect with a little tweeking in the tuning. Ya just gained 3-5 deg of timing, without chance of busting a piston because the burn is so much smoother.. Then maybe toss in a little Nitro-methane, up that oxygen further, and now your cooking with some Outlaw Diesel Fuel.. Smell those fries a burning...

Thank you for the explanation..there's a station around here with B90 as well

 

[kidturbo]

Thank you for the explanation..there's a station around here with B90 as well

Keep a filter handy, cause your gonna clean out those fuel lines on first tank. Then try rolling your own blends off that B90 to find what actually runs the best. Just beware high BioD blends eat natural rubber. Modern diesel trucks are typically compatible with high bio blends, but older stuff ya might find a hose or two that degrade. Besides that, enjoy.

P.S. B100 to D2 blending video I did 14yrs back. Just shake in the tank

Source: https://youtu.be/2RmCaAlW7JI

 

[1FastBrick]

If your part of the class, it's surly gonna cover your ass while awaiting a trial date. I'm think injunction to halt enforcement actions until it's sorted. Which probably equals a couple years minimum, or long than SEMA has been farting around with DC lawmakers.

I find myself setting back looking at this from a unique angle. Presently as someone working in the marine performance industry, who really has no horse in the race. But previously as a speed shop owner back in the 90's when all this law came about. And most recently as a biofuels producer, who worked hard to help get B20 certification on all modern diesel engines. Only to see all that effort wasted, since big oil refused to ever play ball and blend any bio into our fuel supplies.

Unlike Ethanol, there is no government mandate in the US to for blending any biodiesel into our fuels. So ya have to hunt for B20 fuel. Yet in the EU they do, and good old Bosch built the CP4 system specifilly thinking everyone be running on some biodiesel. Big oil screwed your CP4 pump up, not Bosch.. My 2C.

Very interesting info. Yes we mainly only have B20 here in California now. Straight number 2 is hard to find.

What's Funny is the E-85 is cheaper at this time, but only because of government subsidies.... My understanding is that is much more costly to produce and with out the subsidies the cost of the finished product will be higher than standard Gasoline.

 

[kidturbo]

Very interesting info. Yes we mainly only have B20 here in California now. Straight number 2 is hard to find.

What's Funny is the E-85 is cheaper at this time, but only because of government subsidies.... My understanding is that is much more costly to produce and with out the subsidies the cost of the finished product will be higher than standard Gasoline.

Ethanol is typically cheaper to produce, but since the Ukraine war, price of feed-stock, typically corn has shot up. And ya get into competing with human and livestock feed stocks now. This has always been a huge factor in Biodiesel production. And those industries do rely on subsidies. Originally there was a tax credit if you produced Biodiesel from Virgin oils only, like soybean.

But that credit didn't do much to spark production, since virgin oils cost ya way more than the $1.00 the Gov was contributing. Then around 09-10 they changed that to a $1.00 per gallon Blenders Tax Credit. Meant to get big oil interested in blending some bioD into the normal fuel stream. Didn't work either, big oil still wasn't buying. So most of the Producer started just blending everything in house and claiming the credits. I sold only B99 On-Road or Off-Road blends. There was no limit or minimum blend number to claim the credits, just show you actually blended diesel into your bioD and done.. However that tax credit is under the Farm Bill, and we typically spent a whole year so producing fuel, wondering if the bill would pass congress, and then maybe I get my $1.00 credits..

Last they came out with a program called RINs. A way to track every gallon of bioD produced, and big oil would be forced to show they purchased the fuel by tracking the RINs. The value of RINs was based on how badly a company needs to offset carbon credits or penalties. Any big company looking at paying a fine for continued pollution, could offset that by buying RINs from a biodiesel producer and get a big break. Sounded good, but the fraud was ramped, with biofuels companies being caught selling the same batch of fuel over and over again. Because nobody ever bought the fuel, just the attached paper. RIN's... Got to the point where unless produced a couple million gallons or more, had a law firm handle all the paperwork, nobody trusted your RIN's were legit.. Small producers couldn't get paid for their RINs and while still in play, it only drove up the value of feed-stocks.

Renewable Identification Numbers (RINs) under the Renewable Fuel Standard Program | US EPA

If you have questions on what RIN is, how RINs are traded, what types of RIN transactions include, and how EPA records all transactions involving RINs, you are in the right place.

www.epa.gov

Most of us small time producers, under a million gallons per year, learned to live off using recycled / second use feed-stocks and the blenders credit. When I got out in 2016 the value of clean used cooking oil was around $1.20 a gallon, converted from the trade value in pounds to gallon. Diesel fuel dropped under $3.00 per gallon, and without receiving RINs or knowing if the Farm Bill would get renewed, it was barely a break even deal. Before Methanol recycling, ya have about $1.00 per gallon just in chemicals for BioD production costs. RINs were bringing $1.50 or more per gallon on the market.. So for me it wasn't practical to produce fuel when I could just collect the used cooking oil feed-stock and sell that to a big Biodiesel producer, who would sell me back finished fuel minus the RINs cheaper than I could make it.. Crazy sounding, but I could literally drop off 1000 gallons of used oil and get back 1000 gallons of B100 fuel, straight trade.. Then claim my fuel blenders credit, and at least have some free fuel.

Fast forward 2022, diesel is around $5.00 a gallon. Same as when I stared the hobby back in 2007. However when I checked with my friends still involved the business, was shocked to hear used cooking oil feed-stock, the stuff in the dumpster out back of a restaurants, was bringing over $4.00 per gallon... RIN prices were way up, and the guys who collect used oil were making all the money now. Soybeans were high, making virgin oil prices out of reach for big producer. Same ones who wouldn't give ya squat for used cooking oil 10yrs ago, now cornering the market on it.

So if your still awake, the whole industry remains a mess last I checked. Yes more money being pumped into renewables thanks to our relance on Russian D2 for the past decade. But will it bring back biodiesel, I say not. Big oil still not buying anything produced besides all the patents to Algae Biofuels. Which I beleive they burn upon receipt best I can tell. Algae has best feed-stock yield per acre, but last I checked, cost about $10.00 per gallon to produce into Biodiesel. Luckily California, like EU has some mandates that say the fuel must be put into supply a normal person can buy. If not, big oil would just as soon pump it down a hole and claim the RINs...

 

[2004LB7]

Ethanol is typically cheaper to produce, but since the Ukraine war, price of feed-stock, typically corn has shot up. And ya get into competing with human and livestock feed stocks now. This has always been a huge factor in Biodiesel production. And those industries do rely on subsidies. Originally there was a tax credit if you produced Biodiesel from Virgin oils only, like soybean.

But that credit didn't do much to spark production, since virgin oils cost ya way more than the $1.00 the Gov was contributing. Then around 09-10 they changed that to a $1.00 per gallon Blenders Tax Credit. Meant to get big oil interested in blending some bioD into the normal fuel stream. Didn't work either, big oil still wasn't buying. So most of the Producer started just blending everything in house and claiming the credits. I sold only B99 On-Road or Off-Road blends. There was no limit or minimum blend number to claim the credits, just show you actually blended diesel into your bioD and done.. However that tax credit is under the Farm Bill, and we typically spent a whole year so producing fuel, wondering if the bill would pass congress, and then maybe I get my $1.00 credits..

Last they came out with a program called RINs. A way to track every gallon of bioD produced, and big oil would be forced to show they purchased the fuel by tracking the RINs. The value of RINs was based on how badly a company needs to offset carbon credits or penalties. Any big company looking at paying a fine for continued pollution, could offset that by buying RINs from a biodiesel producer and get a big break. Sounded good, but the fraud was ramped, with biofuels companies being caught selling the same batch of fuel over and over again. Because nobody ever bought the fuel, just the attached paper. RIN's... Got to the point where unless produced a couple million gallons or more, had a law firm handle all the paperwork, nobody trusted your RIN's were legit.. Small producers couldn't get paid for their RINs and while still in play, it only drove up the value of feed-stocks.

Renewable Identification Numbers (RINs) under the Renewable Fuel Standard Program | US EPA

If you have questions on what RIN is, how RINs are traded, what types of RIN transactions include, and how EPA records all transactions involving RINs, you are in the right place.

www.epa.gov

Most of us small time producers, under a million gallons per year, learned to live off using recycled / second use feed-stocks and the blenders credit. When I got out in 2016 the value of clean used cooking oil was around $1.20 a gallon, converted from the trade value in pounds to gallon. Diesel fuel dropped under $3.00 per gallon, and without receiving RINs or knowing if the Farm Bill would get renewed, it was barely a break even deal. Before Methanol recycling, ya have about $1.00 per gallon just in chemicals for BioD production costs. RINs were bringing $1.50 or more per gallon on the market.. So for me it wasn't practical to produce fuel when I could just collect the used cooking oil feed-stock and sell that to a big Biodiesel producer, who would sell me back finished fuel minus the RINs cheaper than I could make it.. Crazy sounding, but I could literally drop off 1000 gallons of used oil and get back 1000 gallons of B100 fuel, straight trade.. Then claim my fuel blenders credit, and at least have some free fuel.

Fast forward 2022, diesel is around $5.00 a gallon. Same as when I stared the hobby back in 2007. However when I checked with my friends still involved the business, was shocked to hear used cooking oil feed-stock, the stuff in the dumpster out back of a restaurants, was bringing over $4.00 per gallon... RIN prices were way up, and the guys who collect used oil were making all the money now. Soybeans were high, making virgin oil prices out of reach for big producer. Same ones who wouldn't give ya squat for used cooking oil 10yrs ago, now cornering the market on it.

So if your still awake, the whole industry remains a mess last I checked. Yes more money being pumped into renewables thanks to our relance on Russian D2 for the past decade. But will it bring back biodiesel, I say not. Big oil still not buying anything produced besides all the patents to Algae Biofuels. Which I beleive they burn upon receipt best I can tell. Algae has best feed-stock yield per acre, but last I checked, cost about $10.00 per gallon to produce into Biodiesel. Luckily California, like EU has some mandates that say the fuel must be put into supply a normal person can buy. If not, big oil would just as soon pump it down a hole and claim the RINs...

Sounds like another episode of Great Moments in Unintended Consequences by ReasonTV

 

[kidturbo]

Sounds like another episode of Great Moments in Unintended Consequences by ReasonTV

Story of two renewable fuels. One is nationally mandated 15% blending into all streams [Ethanol], and the other, ya gotta know a farmer to find it. Or stop by Willie Nelson's truck stop.. That blenders tax credit was suppose to make the costs of Biodeisel cheaper at the pumps, so people would want to buy it, rather than be forced to buy it. Looked good on paper...

Now back to suing the EPA.. If ya read up on the RINs structure above, you can see they have no freaking clue on a lot of things..

 

[TheBac]

Not sure what was going on yesterday afternoon at the airport, but we had two F/A-18s fly over the house, then circle around back over the house twice more before they landed. Very rare to see military fighters around our area for any reason. On their first flyover, we heard something at a distance.....then saw them, but their sound followed shortly after due to their speed. So loud, but so cool to see.

 

[2004LB7]

Not sure what was going on yesterday afternoon at the airport, but we had two F/A-18s fly over the house, then circle around back over the house twice more before they landed. Very rare to see military fighters around our area for any reason. On their first flyover, we heard something at a distance.....then saw them, but their sound followed shortly after due to their speed. So loud, but so cool to see.

Another "weather" balloon?

 

[1FastBrick]

Not sure what was going on yesterday afternoon at the airport, but we had two F/A-18s fly over the house, then circle around back over the house twice more before they landed. Very rare to see military fighters around our area for any reason. On their first flyover, we heard something at a distance.....then saw them, but their sound followed shortly after due to their speed. So loud, but so cool to see.

Typically 2 like that is in response to an air threat. Like if major airline pilots stop responding, there is a major disturbance in the cabin and the pilot reports it. Or if there is a "UFO" in the area and they don't have way to contact it. Then they typically scramble 2 fighters to visually identify and report back.

I live near an air base that they don't use often but when they do its pretty awesome to see them fly over at tree top level.

 

[PureHybrid]

Story of two renewable fuels. One is nationally mandated 15% blending into all streams [Ethanol], and the other, ya gotta know a farmer to find it. Or stop by Willie Nelson's truck stop.. That blenders tax credit was suppose to make the costs of Biodeisel cheaper at the pumps, so people would want to buy it, rather than be forced to buy it. Looked good on paper...

Your RIN story is similar to this whole "renewable natural gas" crap. Gas companies can sell their CNG as "renewable" as long as some of it is in the pipe (very low %). And plants converting h2o to hydrogen, we've sent a couple compressors out to get proofed for this. I can't see it being cost effective to produce hydrogen through electrolysis OR gasification. Especially gasification as the methane used has more energy than the end product. Hydrogen is about worthless BTU wise but it gives the greenies a hard on. All about the "green renewable fuel / carbon neutral" claim and tax credit

 

[TheBac]

Typically 2 like that is in response to an air threat. Like if major airline pilots stop responding, there is a major disturbance in the cabin and the pilot reports it. Or if there is a "UFO" in the area and they don't have way to contact it. Then they typically scramble 2 fighters to visually identify and report back.

I live near an air base that they don't use often but when they do its pretty awesome to see them fly over at tree top level.

Hmm...UFOs in Lansing? I guess anything can happen. Drove around the airport today looking for the fighters, as we didnt hear them take off yesterday or yet today. They must have them in one of the general aviation hangers bc I didnt see them out on the ramp anywhere.

 

[Steve9]

Can we continue?

I don't know. Can you? (may)

I remember when grade schools compelled us to use proper English...reckon that means I'm old

 

[PureHybrid]

We had an English teacher in 6th grade that would "reprimand" students for saying YEA or YUP instead of YES in class

 

[kidturbo]

Where I live, in a van down by the river, has long been a training waypoint for fighters out of WP Dayton. So seeing faster movers come by a low altitude is fairly common. Back in mid 2000's, one evening I heard a jet go by and thought little of it. A bit out of their normal operating window, but have also seen C130's out of Charleston WV Air National Guard come over later, in formation at tree top level and all blacked out. So didn't give it much thought, until the jet came back around in a banked turn across my front yard. He made about 4 passes, and I knew something was up. Then he just vanished.

Turned on the local 11PM news, to a special alert, plane crash in Jackson Co WV. Said it had explosive onboard and to avoid the area. Knowing it must be related, I jumped in the truck and drove down the highway along the river. Sure enough I see a sting of red lights going up a hill near the river, about 2 miles from my house. First thought, it was that jet. Jumped on the internet and soon learned it wasn't the military jet that crashed, but actually a Cirrus prop plane with single person onboard.

Ended up it was a pilot out of DC or somewhere heading to an airport in Maryland, who failed to land at listed destination, so they scrambled a jet out of Wright P. Guess the pilot had the plane trimmed nicely, but not on auto pilot. He suffers a heart attack and dies mid flight, no comms to ground, and the plane flew right over his destination airport. Which back in 2005ish, was sure get something scrambled on ya. Somehow in BFE WV the plane comes out of trim, and proceeds to circle into the ground. Crashing on a hilltop less than two miles from my house. Which instantly made me wonder if he had some help coming out of trim..

The whole explosives onboard alert was due to the Cirrus aircraft having an emergency rocket deployed parachute system. All ya have to do on those planes is kill the power, reach up pull the chute lever, and it will rocket launch the huge parachute out the top. One of the safest aircraft ever produced. However someone has to pull that lever, and according to the jet pilot report, the cirrus pilot was non-responsive upon contact.

 

[kidturbo]

Canadians ain't scared of the big bad U.S. EPA. Seems the USD converts just fine also.
19:15 tells ya all you need to know..

Source: https://youtu.be/HMqaFUPCUok

 

[clrussell]

As I prep to sell the lbz I went and got my 6.5 from the farm while I still have a heavy tow rig.

Girlfriend thinks I should keep the lbz. I just don’t like it sitting around and rarely Use it. I live 2 miles from work and have other rigs to drive. This is the biggest load it’s had on it in a year.

I’ve also got about 3/4 of the stuff to make the Lbz decent looking again, just no time and other big projects. But damn it’s a good truck.

 

[1FastBrick]

I tend to agree with your girl friend. I would keep the LBZ. Even though your not really driving it, I bet you would feel differently if you started fixing it up.

I sold one of my trucks that wasn't being used when I bought my LLY Because I didn't want to park it on the street, It was a nice truck and still smelled new inside, I didn't want it to get thrashed doing truck stuff, and I was also afraid it would get stolen if people found out what it really was and it was just sitting on the street...

Things have changed and I wish I would have sold the Daily instead and kept that truck. The person I sold it to passed away in a motorcycle Accident. I am not sure how the current owner acquired it but I see was listed for sale again and has since been repainted. Unfortunately it is just not in the cards right now for me to get it back...

 

[Dozerboy]

I always want to learn Martial arts growing up. We didn't have the money or time though. We signed my little girl up for Taekwondo last week. My god daughters take it and a few others I know. I like the values and experience it has given them.

She's the string bean in pink in the middle. She will get her Gi next week. I'm really proud of her effort so far. While she loves to do stuff with me she's still kind of a girly girl.

 

[shakenfake]

I tried Brazilian Ju Jitsu a few months ago but shoot the intro costs are pretty up there and I was not a big fan of it.

Would like to get into boxing but full time work and full time school has held me back from it.