Let's Talk About Electric Water Pumps

[IdahoRob]

You really thick one head from another (both factory casting) there will be a difference between the two? That must be some good soup! This almost sounds like some Wade or Dmitri super special out there that nobody else has got or done type stuff. LOL Sorry but lets get real. Why does a tech tread have to turn into a who's better? This diesel stuff has more johnny come lately im the best my stuff is the best young guns I have ever seen in 30 years of racing cars! Lets fix problems not see who thinks there buddy is the best.

Amen Jeff.

I have worked with Guy on this waterpump stuff for quite a while. Single electric, dual electric running each side of the engine, mechanical, different thermostats/restrictors/no restrictors, etc on different engines gathering different data. Take it for what it's worth, but i'd at least listen when Guy posts it will usually save some pain no matter who's parts you want to run.

 

[Trippin]

I drilled the edges of my tstats with a 3/16" bit...as many as I could fit...and run a 30lb cap...I also use Detroit power cool mixed 60/40. I'm sure there are a lot of factors to debate with the following data, but its just what I have so far.

Highest average ect with socal stage 2 heads after making passes all day at bandimere some with nitrous, 90deg ambient, was 230ish and would drop to 160 within minutes in the pits for another run.

Running Davids heads, Same power, 10 lbs more boost, running 75deg ambient in NH, ect would only get to 215 after the runs. Nothing else changed between motors. Peak Egts were only 200deg cooler in NH, and that was even without nitrous or cryo2 turned on to cool IAT.

Way too many variables to be remotely useful data.

Good idea on the tstats and 30lb cap, overall pressure in the cooling system will raise the boiling point of the fluid. Still going to come down to overall flow and the ability to conduct heat out of the engine.

 

[S Phinney]

I drilled the edges of my tstats with a 3/16" bit...as many as I could fit...and run a 30lb cap...I also use Detroit power cool mixed 60/40. I'm sure there are a lot of factors to debate with the following data, but its just what I have so far.

Highest average ect with socal stage 2 heads after making passes all day at bandimere some with nitrous, 90deg ambient, was 230ish and would drop to 160 within minutes in the pits for another run.

Running Davids heads, Same power, 10 lbs more boost, running 75deg ambient in NH, ect would only get to 215 after the runs. Nothing else changed between motors. Peak Egts were only 200deg cooler in NH, and that was even without nitrous or cryo2 turned on to cool IAT.

Running Davids heads I noticed about the same ECT at 218 on the dyno. I doubt that it really had anything to do with the head but pretty comparable numbers. Mine was cool back done within 20-30 seconds. I also run the racing thermostats as well and a late model OEM water pump.

 

[SmokeShow]

Ah, forget it... This isn't the place for the head flow discussion. Sorry.

 

[Stingpuller]

Water pumps

I have seen the same problems with water pump issues and valve seats moving around. I have to run a electric pump just for room and to keep it simple. Mine only runs for 7 sec at a time so for me it's not a big deal. How many guys on here know that pro stock cars turn to water pump of on a pass and use the motor/water as a heat sink. They did back when I was in the loop and would assume they still do. Good tech keep it coming.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I have seen the same problems with water pump issues and valve seats moving around. I have to run a electric pump just for room and to keep it simple. Mine only runs for 7 sec at a time so for me it's not a big deal. How many guys on here know that pro stock cars turn to water pump of on a pass and use the motor/water as a heat sink. They did back when I was in the loop and would assume they still do. Good tech keep it coming.

They do it to keep battery voltage up during a pass, and in that short amount of time the water pump running wouldn't be able to reduce any hotspots as it takes longer than 7 seconds or so for the heat to make it from the combustion chamber out into the cooling jackets.

 

[juddski88]

75 deg to 90 deg makes quite a difference though. I have yet to take my truck down the track but with towing I can tow at 75 with no worries but at 90 my engine gets quite warm.

Towing is a lot different than an XX second pass, your engine is not allowed to cool off immediately afterwards, mine does. The only difference I can see in Ambient temp difference of 75-90 degrees, and of course baro being about 2psi higher in NH or even here at the shop (compared to Denver), is that the average ECT while idling before a run would be slightly higher if I wasn't controlling it with the electric fans.

So I am curious, what type of data would the experts like to compare to their own? I am always up for science experiments...

 

[05_LLY]

For the low circulation before t-stat opening, has anybody tried removing the restrictor in the bypass line? I could also see blocking off the heater hose outlet as reducing block flow while the stats are closed.

I often thought about the heater hose, ive seen guys block them, I always chose to run the line even if no heater is used as I figured it was a place to relieve pressure in a closed t stat situation.



I also have been running with holes drilled in the t stats on purpose built trucks, seems to help but at some point I think it would affect the (after the run) ability to cool back down some.

 

[juddski88]

I often thought about the heater hose, ive seen guys block them, I always chose to run the line even if no heater is used as I figured it was a place to relieve pressure in a closed t stat situation.



I also have been running with holes drilled in the t stats on purpose built trucks, seems to help but at some point I think it would affect the (after the run) ability to cool back down some.

In my truck I believe it helps cool it. It takes FOREVER to warm up...like 20-30 minutes with the pump running.

 

[kjp800]

Excellent reading....what are everyones thoughts on doing away with thermostats all together? Pull only truck and the what would be "thermostat housing" would be necked down for some restriction then back up to a 1.5" upper hose

 

[CurtisEmery]

Comparing etc temps at sea level vs Denver is laughable at best. Lower density air at elevation WILL NOT cool the engine as effectively as the denser air at sea. I am gonna go out on limb and say that the temp differences you saw between the two different manufacturers was air density NOT porting. I hope this clears that up for everyone.

 

[juddski88]

Nitrous was used in Denver to compensate... but maybe that's laughable too

 

[CurtisEmery]

Then why would you even bring this up in a thread about water pumps????

 

[juddski88]

The argument was that electric pump were not adequate...I disagreed. I disagreed because it has worked fine for me and while the Social heads displayed shortcomings, regardless, the electric pump, in my truck, did it job well

 

[Stingpuller]

OK

Tim, I have to ask again how a head can make a difference when they both start with the same casting???? I understand you want to support DTS but you just not being logical. Warming a motor up with a electric pump means nothing because your moving a fixed amount of water all the time. My dragster will idle forever and the radiator only holds little over half a gallon. You not comparing apples to apples.

 

[juddski88]

My argument was not based on idle temps, it was based on what I saw after WOT runs. I understand that elevation may have played a part, but how much with a 30lb cap? The temperatures I saw with the original motor were always high even while testing here, however, I was always changing stuff so there's no point in throwing in that data here. I didnt make the argument to support DTS, I made the argument so that people would see there are ways to make the electric pumps work for them.

The stage 2 heads displayed all the signs and symptoms that they had seen waaaayy too much heat. The intake valves were all burned, beaten out the seats, and while they were used when I bought them, I was told by Tony they had just been sent to Guy to be checked out. So they had 1500 miles on them, A handful of track passes and a maybe a couple dozen street runs.

 

[CurtisEmery]

My argument was not based on idle temps, it was based on what I saw after WOT runs. I understand that elevation may have played a part, but how much with a 30lb cap? The temperatures I saw with the original motor were always high even while testing here, however, I was always changing stuff so there's no point in throwing in that data here. I didnt make the argument to support DTS, I made the argument so that people would see there are ways to make the electric pumps work for them.

The stage 2 heads displayed all the signs and symptoms that they had seen waaaayy too much heat. The intake valves were all burned, beaten out the seats, and while they were used when I bought them, I was told by Tony they had just been sent to Guy to be checked out. So they had 1500 miles on them, A handful of track passes and a maybe a couple dozen street runs.

Tim the problem with the scenarios you are using is the actual test conditions. sea level vs denver and a shot of nitrous aren't exactly even test conditions... For the life of me I cant figure out why you beating a dead horse over these heads. We all know the story, and this isn't the place to bring that up. Your talking about burnt intake valves, Guy is talking about exhaust valve seat issues due to localized hot spots. What you are saying makes no sense. I have seen half a dozen sets of duramax heads with exhaust exhaust seat and valve issues due to electric water pumps. Never any intake valve related issues. We went back to a lbz pump and the issues went away. When you are seeing 1900-2000 degree egts for any length of time, water flow through the heads is the key. I just don't see any electric options that are capable of meeting our needs at this time.

 

[juddski88]

How am I the one beating the dead horse? Lol. Unless heat was being contained in the cylinder too long, how else would my intake valves have been damaged? I'm looking to learn here too.

 

[CurtisEmery]

Burnt intake valves are usually caused by tight valve clearance. When heat comes into play the exhaust are the first to fail. They have to deal with a phenomenal amount of heat compared what the intakes see. I would suspect clearance was the issue if the exhausts were good.

 

[juddski88]

The exhaust valves themselves were alright, the seats were eroding a bit. They were not warped though which was good. As for clearances, that motor was very loose in fact. Piston protrusion was close to .005" all around. Lash was set to a tight .011" if I remember correctly. The new motor is running tighter clearances now. Cold, piston to valve is .075" if I remember correctly.