LLY: Injector issues.

[joshd472]

I'm sorry I know this has been beat the death but I am having some injector issues I was hoping somebody could help me out with. I've spend a lot time researching and trying to figure it out myself but I'm stumped.

2004.5 LLY 250k miles. Intake and exhaust are the only mods that i am aware of. I do not know the last time injectors were replaced.

The truck started giving off white smoke at idle in gear only. It also has a cylinder 3 misfire code (sometimes). You can feel/hear the truck misfiring in gear. I pulled the oil fill cap off and no smoke comes out and there isn't enough blow by to knock the cap off the tube if you put it on the tube upside down. No harness rub and all injector have been ice picked.

I logged these balance rates with the Dash Commander App.

Park
#1 -2.7
#2 -1.8
#3 15
#4 -0.7
#5 -7.0
#6 -0.7
#7 -2.9
#8 0.3
Main Injection rate. 12.5

With the main injection rate being at 12.5 (should read 9 correct?) am I right in thinking that I should subtract 3.5 from all the numbers which would make my readings as follows.

#1 -6.2
#2 -5.3
#3 11
#4 -4.2
#5 -10.5
#6 -4.2
#7 -6.4
#8 -3.2

If anyone can tell me if I am calculating my numbers in the correct way it would be very much appreciated. A couple of more points to add this truck is not a DD. I bought this truck as a fixer upper to pull a boat with in late August with the classic FPR loop and some trans issues. It had a bully dog gt on it at the time but I uninstalled the tune so I can get the issues sorted out.
I have the fixed the trans and installed a new FPR and the truck ran great for around 300 miles or so (on the stock tune still). Then I noticed the smoke and misfire. I have not drove the truck since. I plan on running the cleaner through it tonight and digging into a little more this weekend.

One last thing to add is after i installed the new FPR on cold starts I would get the p0089 code (never got it before the new FPR but once the truck warmed up and I cleared it the code would not come back until the next cold start.

Sorry for the lengthy post guys. I'm just trying to be give as much information as possible. I'm about at my wits end the this thing. The main concern I have is am I doing my math right on the balance rates? Thanks for any advice.

Here are some screen shots from the App
Park:








Drive:

 

[DAVe3283]

The balance rates and misfire code all indicate something very wrong with cylinder 3. It could be a bad injector, could be the cylinder is hurt. A compression test will tell you a lot. Hopefully you're only going to need to throw a new injector in it.

 

[joshd472]

I have read in could be a bad piston/bent rods etc. I really hope not. I plan on doing a compression test this weekend.

 

[ALLY Fox]

Balance rates basically tell how much more or how much less fuel is needed to compensate for variations in crankshaft rotational speed to keep the engine running smoothly. There's lots more to it than that, but other things can cause mismatched balance rates besides injectors. "Icepicking" injector harness connectors doesn't always fix a bad harness connection, contacts could be burned or oxidized. How fresh is the fuel, especially if it's BIO? Fuel filter? Any indication of water in fuel? Air getting into fuel lines? You might try a good fuel additive before you tear into it, pour a bunch of DK or other good additive into 1/4 tank and drive it for a while to see if anything changes.

 

[joshd472]

I will check the connectors. Fuel is fresh. Doesn't appear to be water in the fuel. Doubt air is the cause. I'm going to try and run cleaner (xp66) through it tonight and check the rates again.

Fuel does appear to be in my oil. I honestly haven't ran it enough/have enough knowledge to tell for sure tho.

I just replace all of the fuel lines, fulids, and filters after I replaced the FPR

I found a bore scope at work. Hopefully it's small enough to get in the glow plug holes and I can do that and a compression test this weekend.

 

[Ne-max]

Any blowby?

 

[joshd472]

I took the cap off of the oil fill tube and placed it on there upside down. I've read that if the cap doesn't get blown off then you're good (Mine stayed for what it's worth). I really don't know how much blow by is acceptable or an indicator that something is wrong, but i have very little.

 

[joshd472]

Also can anyone confirm my math on the balance rates?

 

[TheBac]

Moved into LLY section.

 

[07keo02]

Subtracting the fuel rate is only going to give you false hope. It will bring #3 down to a number it isn't, because 15 is max command. Focus on cylinder 3 for now. Check the wiring harness for rubbing by the alternator and the compression test.

 

[joshd472]

Thanks for the advice man. I ran the injector cleaner thru it tonight and #3 came down to around 9. I will post the results tomorrow when I get in front of a computer
Hoping to dive in it Friday to check wiring, compression test, and so on.
At this point I'm not feeling good about it. I took about an hour to run the cleaner through and although it never thru the misfire code I could definitely tell the engine was missing.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

You went the wrong way with your math. And a 15 means the ECM is maxxed out on that cylinder. Your other issue is #5 is at a -7 which is maxxed out the other way. I would do a compression test 1st before doing anything else. Then I would try swapping injectors and see if the issue follows the injector or stays with the cylinder.

 

[07keo02]

You went the wrong way with your math. And a 15 means the ECM is maxxed out on that cylinder. Your other issue is #5 is at a -7 which is maxxed out the other way. I would do a compression test 1st before doing anything else. Then I would try swapping injectors and see if the issue follows the injector or stays with the cylinder.

I was under the impression that he would add only if the fuel rate was below what we are looking for, his is above. Would you not subtract the difference?

Edit, I think I see it now. You are either adding a negative or positive difference. In his case, a positive one, making cylinder 3 even more suspect and 5 somewhat less so.

On another note, was the incorrect cylinder issue when checking rates on an lly ever sorted out. An issue exclusive to efi live?

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I was under the impression that he would add only if the fuel rate was below what we are looking for, his is above. Would you not subtract the difference?

Edit, I think I see it now. You are either adding a negative or positive difference. In his case, a positive one, making cylinder 3 even more suspect and 5 somewhat less so.

On another note, was the incorrect cylinder issue when checking rates on an lly ever sorted out. An issue exclusive to efi live?

You can't correct a maxxed out rate though. Anything at a -7 or 15 is at the limits, and thus is running outside what the ecm can measure. Balance rates are simply how far + or - each injector is injecting from the fuel rate. So if you have sayva -3 balnce rate but a fuel rate of 12, you would add 3 to it since the fuel rate is 3mm3 higher than it should be, and the positive 3 you're addi,g on would cancel out the -3 balance rate leaving you with a 0. Now if you had a -3 balance rate with a fuel rate of 5, you would add a -3 to it since you want to see 8-9mm3 of fuel at idle, and it would make it a -6. But if you have balance rates at the max of what the ecm can register, you don't know what they actually are since the ecm is stopping at its limits.

 

[joshd472]

Where is the best place to get a compression tester?

 

[Slowmax]

Where is the best place to get a compression tester?

If you have a Harbor Freight within driving distance they have a nice diesel compression tester, and many have used it without issues'.

 

[joshd472]

Here are the rates in park after the cleaning last night.

 

[DAVe3283]

I'd do what was suggested earlier: compression test, and/or swap the #3 injector with another (like #1) and see if the bad balance rate follows the injector or stays with the cylinder.

If it follows the injector, time for a new injector. If it stays with the cylinder, you have to dig deeper. Could still be a wiring issue, could be low compression, or any number of things.

 

[joshd472]

I agree. Knew I wouldn't to be able to really dig into it until tomorrow and from what I was researching I was getting really anxious. i will post what I find out tomorrow

 

[joshd472]

Finally got to dig into the truck today. Couldn't find a compression tester anywhere local. So I decided to just move the injectors. When I pulled off the return line I noticed all the o rings were bad. To the parts store to get a return line and crush washers moved #3 to #1 and #5 to #7 and the problem followed the injectors. Thank the good lord for that.

On a side note I don't know if it was the bad return line or what but once I buttoned up everything and got the truck up to temp I noticed the miss was gone and balance rates read much better. My fuel rate was at 10 and all of my rates were within +- 2 except for the 2 bad injectors which were -5 and 8. The haze is also gone. I really want to do the entire passenger bank but money is tight right now with the holidays so I can only do the 2. A big Thank you to everyone. So far this site has saved me about 5k on this old fixer upper and I really appreciate it.

Anyone have any suggestions on where to order the injectors from?