Horse-torque Duramax vs. Cummins

[IOWA LLY]

Watch this video. More importantly, listen to the trucks. https://youtu.be/fqv_u1O9A1E

Which of the trucks is using it's peak torque? My point was this: when limited to d.o.t. tires, and at this power level, you try to stay well above your peak torque level.

Torque is a by-product of putting in the work to make the most power you can. But torque can work against you on dirt. For example, our engine made it's peak torque @ just shy of 3k rpm. And the curve goes down from there. Peak hp @ 3450 rpm. Thing is, we never want to run rpms this low down the track. If you geared your truck to run an rpm range right in the thick of the torque curve, 1- it would never keep a class-competitive sized charger lit & 2-it would eat up drivetrain and engine parts worse than we already do.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Your falling off your charger for other reasons if you can’t keep it lit at peak torque. Camshaft possibly, heads, etc.

I do agree though on breaking stuff. It’s only good if you can use it. If your broke all the horsepower in the world won’t go anywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[ikeG]

Your falling off your charger for other reasons if you can’t keep it lit at peak torque. Camshaft possibly, heads, etc.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

If you gear the truck so that peak rpm down the track was at peak torque(3000 rpm in the example), you will more than likely lose enough rpm at the end of the run that the charger will snuff.

 

[JoshH]

I will agree that Wagler is definitely pushing the envelope on what is possible with the Duramax and is thinking way outside the box on some of their projects, but I will also agree that some of their projects seem a little rushed and lacking in polish. They're cool, but they have yet to really show their full potential.

I think a lot of you aren't giving enough credit to SoCal and how far they have advanced the performance capabilities of the Duramax. Guy was probably the biggest driving factor in EFILive moving into Duramax tuning. I know a lot of the discussion has been focused on sled pulling, but as far as I know, no other shop has put out more consistently fast engines than SoCal. Look at what engines were used by the top two competitors at the UCC last year. Now that they have moved into their new facility, I expect things to really take off, and I think we will see more innovation from them than we have seen in a while.

I honestly don't think that the Duramax is that far behind the Cummins, expecially the common rail trucks. Now sled pulling with a mechanical pump may be a completely different story, but I think that has more to do with the RPM potential of a mechanical pump vs a common rail being run by a factory ECM. I think if the Duramax is ever going to compete with a sigma pump monster, it will need a completely stand alone, aftermarket ECM.

 

[ikeG]

I honestly don't think that the Duramax is that far behind the Cummins, expecially the common rail trucks. Now sled pulling with a mechanical pump may be a completely different story, but I think that has more to do with the RPM potential of a mechanical pump vs a common rail being run by a factory ECM. I think if the Duramax is ever going to compete with a sigma pump monster, it will need a completely stand alone, aftermarket ECM.

Any duramax at that level(there are two that i know of, Kusilek & Kyle Michael) is running a Bosch standalone controller. They are controlling 5 cp3's with it. The third duramax(Chris Watson)at that level that i know of is running a sigma:coolspot:

 

[Ne-max]

Many guys are running Bosch stand alone controllers. Especially in the sled pulling world.

I support wagler. I'm running some wagler stuff in my trick this season. He has awesome products. But not much info on them.

Duramaxs are sneaking up slowly in competition. A duramax won schieds a couple years ago. Huge step. Just seeks like they are way more temperamental.

 

[Chevy1925]

I will agree that Wagler is definitely pushing the envelope on what is possible with the Duramax and is thinking way outside the box on some of their projects, but I will also agree that some of their projects seem a little rushed and lacking in polish. They're cool, but they have yet to really show their full potential.



I think a lot of you aren't giving enough credit to SoCal and how far they have advanced the performance capabilities of the Duramax. Guy was probably the biggest driving factor in EFILive moving into Duramax tuning. I know a lot of the discussion has been focused on sled pulling, but as far as I know, no other shop has put out more consistently fast engines than SoCal. Look at what engines were used by the top two competitors at the UCC last year. Now that they have moved into their new facility, I expect things to really take off, and I think we will see more innovation from them than we have seen in a while.



I honestly don't think that the Duramax is that far behind the Cummins, expecially the common rail trucks. Now sled pulling with a mechanical pump may be a completely different story, but I think that has more to do with the RPM potential of a mechanical pump vs a common rail being run by a factory ECM. I think if the Duramax is ever going to compete with a sigma pump monster, it will need a completely stand alone, aftermarket ECM.

I don’t discount Guy by any means. He was and is a pioneer in the duramax field but it seems there was a lull in pushing the envelop to get the engine up in hp. Wagler kinda took the light there the last couple years. I’d love to see him really get things going with the new facility. He was flat out of space in the old one

 

[D1rty-max]

I don’t discount Guy by any means. He was and is a pioneer in the duramax field but it seems there was a lull in pushing the envelop to get the engine up in hp. Wagler kinda took the light there the last couple years. I’d love to see him really get things going with the new facility. He was flat out of space in the old one

Wagler seems to have the ability to handle more overhead. I believe Socal`s main issue in the recent years is just being so backed up with limited space. Hopefully the new facility really helps them show their true potential, I think I waited something like 4-5 months for my Duramax to get built. but it was worth the wait and Id do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[2004LB7]

Dont think this was mentioned, what about the torque and HP numbers at the wheels?

What final gear ratio are the Cummins guys using and what numbers does this result at in the wheels vs the Duramax?

 

[NC-smokinlmm]

Wagler seems to have the ability to handle more overhead. I believe Socal`s main issue in the recent years is just being so backed up with limited space. Hopefully the new facility really helps them show their true potential, I think I waited something like 4-5 months for my Duramax to get built. but it was worth the wait and Id do it again in a heartbeat.

Inability to have patience is the biggest issue nowadays. The good guys will always be busy so if you have to wait that's just a testament to their quality. If I ever build another Duramax, Guy or Burket racing will do it...

 

[Chevy1925]

Wagler seems to have the ability to handle more overhead. I believe Socal`s main issue in the recent years is just being so backed up with limited space. Hopefully the new facility really helps them show their true potential, I think I waited something like 4-5 months for my Duramax to get built. but it was worth the wait and Id do it again in a heartbeat.

Inability to have patience is the biggest issue nowadays. The good guys will always be busy so if you have to wait that's just a testament to their quality. If I ever build another Duramax, Guy or Burket racing will do it...

it depends on the part of the season and what you want done. Guy has turned things out quick for me before and other stuff has had to wait. he turned my personal engine out in a month but Lorenzo didnt assemble it, i did. Guy did all the machining and brought in other parts i needed.

 

[Muff]

I’m gonna dream for a minute and see what anybody else cares to come up with if we were to be brainstorming a mechanical Dmax motor.

You’d have to...mount the pump, route high pressure lines in accordance to your camshaft firing order? Match a pump gear to your camshaft gear (not sure how you’d figure that). Fit whatever style injectors you wanted into a head, say custom screw in cups, with top feed mechanical injectors. Eliminate water pump, Fuel lines, belt driven lift pump? Belt driven oil pump? runner intakes, custom front engine cover list goes on and on.

Say you did all that and were able to turn the fuel way down on the pump so you could start out testing at a small horsepower number on stockish motors to figure out your setup before having a bagillion dollars in pistons, rods, girdles, heads, blocks.

Once you were ready for Big Power you’d have all of the years of mechanical tractors and cummins piston, injector, etc, etc, to cross reference to help make big powa?

Hypothetically speaking of course

 

[torqued2dmax]

Any duramax at that level(there are two that i know of, Kusilek & Kyle Michael) is running a Bosch standalone controller. They are controlling 5 cp3's with it. The third duramax(Chris Watson)at that level that i know of is running a sigma:coolspot:

Isaac I m glad you said Kyles name first I was afraid they would cut off my head ! I took my truck to his shop a few years ago , good work and no problems .In Diesel World mag Nov 2017 pg 60 , most powerful Duramax known 3000hp 4000 tq 6000 rpm ! The last pull I remember him being in , he was the only non Cummins out of 16 pro pullers and I think he got 6th and finished the event ,not bad for a 30 year old doing most of his own work , in a shop he runs by himself ! Now ready for the haters !

 

[ikeG]

https://youtu.be/PL_Mv8TH_Ow

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[IOWA LLY]

I’m gonna dream for a minute and see what anybody else cares to come up with if we were to be brainstorming a mechanical Dmax motor.



You’d have to...mount the pump, route high pressure lines in accordance to your camshaft firing order? Match a pump gear to your camshaft gear (not sure how you’d figure that). Fit whatever style injectors you wanted into a head, say custom screw in cups, with top feed mechanical injectors. Eliminate water pump, Fuel lines, belt driven lift pump? Belt driven oil pump? runner intakes, custom front engine cover list goes on and on.



Say you did all that and were able to turn the fuel way down on the pump so you could start out testing at a small horsepower number on stockish motors to figure out your setup before having a bagillion dollars in pistons, rods, girdles, heads, blocks.



Once you were ready for Big Power you’d have all of the years of mechanical tractors and cummins piston, injector, etc, etc, to cross reference to help make big powa?



Hypothetically speaking of course

The way to do what your talking about doing is by building it of course, but then it needs to be put on an engine dyno and start doing durability testing. Keep turning the power up, break, fix, repeat.

There is no cheap way to do what your talking about doing. And there is really no reason to start out at power levels that a stock engine could handle. That would be completely pointless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[ikeG]

Sigma pump would only be legal in the superstock class or any rwyb-type class. I'd say the more common(not much) thing would be a p pump conversion, it would be legal in all classes and more economical.

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168361

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178314

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105108

 

[ikeG]

Isaac I m glad you said Kyles name first I was afraid they would cut off my head ! I took my truck to his shop a few years ago , good work and no problems .In Diesel World mag Nov 2017 pg 60 , most powerful Duramax known 3000hp 4000 tq 6000 rpm ! The last pull I remember him being in , he was the only non Cummins out of 16 pro pullers and I think he got 6th and finished the event ,not bad for a 30 year old doing most of his own work , in a shop he runs by himself ! Now ready for the haters !

The problem is that most of this outside the box stuff is done by pullers. Which they will be tight lipped about it all. And the parts are not going to be marketed by many(understandably). Wagler is changing that somewhat. Unless you actually follow sled pulling,you wont know names like Wes Kusilek, Kyle Michaels, Chris Watson, Andrew Stauffer, Evan Davis, etc. These guys are pushing duramax performance to high levels but not seeking attention nor accolades for it, just competition fueling their drive.

 

[ikeG]

Kyle Michael's

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[ikeG]

Kusilek's Wagler engine for his superstock truck. They run 5 cp3's. Notice the huge valve covers to fit the case IH iveco injectors. Waglers billet heads have raised intake runners to create a straighter path to the valve. They run a 5" single charger in a class dominated by haisley & scheid's three charger setups. Wagler had on FB that they had dynod this setup up to 7500 rpm @ 2xxx hp. I remember Jeremy telling me one time they try to run it at 6k rpm, something was requiring constant repair at any higher rpm. I cannot remember what part it was.

Just insane. In our class (limited pro stock) we think we're big timing with filled blocks and a couple reverse rotation pumps!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[torqued2dmax]

Great picks Isaac and buy the way we love the last two trucks we bought from you ! Great cust svc and no pressure , keep up the great work !

 

[ikeG]

Great picks Isaac and buy the way we love the last two trucks we bought from you ! Great cust svc and no pressure , keep up the great work !

:thumb:. Thanks for the business