Head testing for pullers

[lawnboy01]

1.Bore was 4.100
2.heads were located on dowels that put all test subjects into the same location with head bolts
3. We tried with and without a radius
4. No pipe on exhaust
5. Superflow 600
6. 28" pressure

 

[Trippin]

1.Bore was 4.100
2.heads were located on dowels that put all test subjects into the same location with head bolts
3. We tried with and without a radius
4. No pipe on exhaust
5. Superflow 600
6. 28" pressure

Awesome, great job!

:beer

 

[SmokeShow]

What's the contributing factor that made them "flat line" around the .3 lift? Especially the top two? Both of those were the ones with larger valves, right? But whats the explanation of that?

Absolutely not bashing or critiquing. Just a trend I noticed and am just curious about. :thumb:

 

[S Phinney]

What's the contributing factor that made them "flat line" around the .3 lift? Especially the top two? Both of those were the ones with larger valves, right? But whats the explanation of that?



Absolutely not bashing or critiquing. Just a trend I noticed and am just curious about. :thumb:

Limits of the port and configuration would be a contributing factor. You do need to keep in mind velocity if the flow as well. For instance DTS heads have bigger ports than Socal but Socal will have better velocity. That velocity contributes to a better operating engine. Turbos spool better etc.


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[S Phinney]

Awesome, great job!



:beer

Glad you joined the conversation Guy!


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[lawnboy01]

If you look at the numbers, the iron head still makes considerable gains 30cfm and 50cfm

I am by no means an expert. I grew grass for a living for 20+ years. Still learning this diesel stuff as I go.

 

[S Phinney]

I think if we had a tall port design we would have much better flow results. Look at the old style Chevy gas heads and compare to the ls tall port heads. Those two motors can't even compare power wise or fuel mileage wise.


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[nwpadmax]

You do need to keep in mind velocity if the flow as well. For instance DTS heads have bigger ports than Socal but Socal will have better velocity. That velocity contributes to a better operating engine. Turbos spool better etc.

I have seen comments like this posted many times (usually in the gasoline non-direct-injected world).

I am not bashing anyone....but has anyone EVER shown any data to support the idea - especially in regards to diesel?

Folks say "I been doing this for XYZ years" and such, and while I'm not going to start a personal pissing match....all those years should have produced some data.

 

[S Phinney]

I don't know if or how many have the ability to measure the difference enough to satisfy you. But for a moment just imagine what actually is happening when the turbo lights. There is enough velocity at that moment to gain leverage on the wheel. From that point it becomes a chain reaction. That should be enough of a simplified explanation to see where I am coming from. It will take basically a engine dyno to gather the information from head to head and design to design to show you the power output and torque differences. They are definitely measurable. I wish I have the money and resources to intake this. Chassis dynos can't provide that information. There are too many uncontrolled variables for the control if the test to be valid.


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[juddski88]

I have seen comments like this posted many times (usually in the gasoline non-direct-injected world).

I am not bashing anyone....but has anyone EVER shown any data to support the idea - especially in regards to diesel?

Folks say "I been doing this for XYZ years" and such, and while I'm not going to start a personal pissing match....all those years should have produced some data.

In my opinion, Matt, I agree with you. If velocity was the dominant variable, then we wouldn't see some lower pressure turbos outperform some higher pressure combinations on the same engine. Furthermore, I don't think Matt needs any schooling on turbos haha.

 

[lawnboy01]

I don't think Matt needs any schooling on turbos haha.

Oh boy, you're gonna Cooper's head bigger than it already is!:bow:

 

[x MadMAX DIESEL]

I think if we had a tall port design we would have much better flow results. Look at the old style Chevy gas heads and compare to the ls tall port heads. Those two motors can't even compare power wise or fuel mileage wise.


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A tall port would allow less of a degree change in the air flow going to/from manifold to valves. That's a big gain

 

[Dave c]

Air velocity, is only important up to the choke point, which is where mass flow stops. Mass flow gives hp potential.
Velocity is merely max air speed or acceleration up to the choke or port configuration limits.

 

[nwpadmax]

In my opinion, Matt, I agree with you. If velocity was the dominant variable, then we wouldn't see some lower pressure turbos outperform some higher pressure combinations on the same engine. Furthermore, I don't think Matt needs any schooling on turbos haha.

Thanks Tim.

Everyone should ponder the following:

In all the equations covering the power output of radial turbines.....guess which factor is NOT included?

I'm not here to win an argument or wage war or inflate anyone's head, including my own. But if more people started paying attention to mass flow and the rate of rise/fall....the light bulbs would start coming on.

I do think velocity can directly impact combustion (a whole separate thread), but after the bang, I'd like to see more data.

Thanks for posting Lawnboy....even if people don't want to believe.

 

[lawnboy01]

I want to explain some info about my cast iron heads as I may have confused some.
1. They are solid, no water ports
2. They have the mildest port work Wagler offers
3. 34 mm intake 35mm exhaust valve

Solid heads are not for everyone. No, you're not going to run them on your street truck. I chose iron heads for reliability. We cracked two stock heads this season. So now we will be solid block and solid heads.

I'm only 20 over on bore. So I couldn't get the biggest valves available. So can flow numbers go up on the Wagler head? Yes, more flow just with bigger valves.

Port work. I have the mildest port work done. So could flow be increased with the ports opened way up? Yes, they would flow way more.

I've been getting some messages about how my heads don't flow much better than the Stock ported Socal head. Waste of money, right? NO! If I wanted more flow it would be easy. Bore the motor out and put bigger valves in and have Wagler extreme port them. Then I would a lot more flow. But remember flow doesn't = power!! I can only run a 3.0 smooth bore charger. So keep that in mind. Still not convinced that I didn't make a good choice in heads? Reliability! A maxed out stock head will not hold up in my opinion. Lots of cracked heads out there. Again, not bashing anyone's product. Stock heads that have been ported will work great on street trucks. No so great for my application. I will put money on the table that I will not crack a head this year with solid cast iron heads.

Now as far as the rumors of other heads coming out. There may be. I'll believe it when I see it. I needed heads now. So I feel I made a made the best choice in heads on the market. They are a great looking piece. Flow more air than anything I've ever owned. Should be way more reliable. And an important one for me, PPL legal

 

[S Phinney]

I want to explain some info about my cast iron heads as I may have confused some.
1. They are solid, no water ports
2. They have the mildest port work Wagler offers
3. 34 mm intake 35mm exhaust valve

Solid heads are not for everyone. No, you're not going to run them on your street truck. I chose iron heads for reliability. We cracked two stock heads this season. So now we will be solid block and solid heads.

I'm only 20 over on bore. So I couldn't get the biggest valves available. So can flow numbers go up on the Wagler head? Yes, more flow just with bigger valves.

Port work. I have the mildest port work done. So could flow be increased with the ports opened way up? Yes, they would flow way more.

I've been getting some messages about how my heads don't flow much better than the Stock ported Socal head. Waste of money, right? NO! If I wanted more flow it would be easy. Bore the motor out and put bigger valves in and have Wagler extreme port them. Then I would a lot more flow. But remember flow doesn't = power!! I can only run a 3.0 smooth bore charger. So keep that in mind. Still not convinced that I didn't make a good choice in heads? Reliability! A maxed out stock head will not hold up in my opinion. Lots of cracked heads out there. Again, not bashing anyone's product. Stock heads that have been ported will work great on street trucks. No so great for my application. I will put money on the table that I will not crack a head this year with solid cast iron heads.

Now as far as the rumors of other heads coming out. There may be. I'll believe it when I see it. I needed heads now. So I feel I made a made the best choice in heads on the market. They are a great looking piece. Flow more air than anything I've ever owned. Should be way more reliable. And an important one for me, PPL legal

I imagine you will get a few years use out of them. For what you do that us the best option out there right now.


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[lawnboy01]

I imagine you will get a few years use out of them. For what you do that us the best option out there right now.


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I would say the heads will easily outlast rest of the engine

 

[Yellow Jacket]

Did you run just wet heads last year and dry block? Or water in Block too?

 

[lawnboy01]

I ran wet heads on a dry block

 

[Yellow Jacket]

I ran wet heads on a dry block

Ok, I am in the works with Freedom Racing Engines on putting together a .100" over, internally balanced, filled shortblock...but will not be able to purchase Wagler heads to go with it...so I will most likely be using my ported LLY heads on the shortblock and running coolant thru them.

Thanks