Question: has anyone tried a kind-of 4 link rear traction setup?

SmokeShow

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2006
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Lawrenceburg, KY
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=art-tri1000&view=1&N=700+150+

looking at this kit to build off of, I would try to find larger tubing and links but i can't find rubber-bushed or poly-bushed links :confused::confused:
i would do airbags and coilovers. and i think it would only cost between $1000-$1500 depending on what i can find for coilovers. any thoughts?

for bigger bushed links, do a little digging on pirate4x4.com You should be able to find something stout enough that fits the bill for you. If I get a chance, I'll look as well because I know I've seen them somewhere.


I can't remember and don't wanna read this entire thread again, but can you or do you not block the rear suspension solid?


C-ya
 

TrentNell

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Jul 7, 2008
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so traditional or cantilever???
i like the cantilever for stability the best, and i like the looks of doing the air-over-shock in addition to the big air bag for the rebound, or i could just do a normal shock (no spring) along with the big air bag. or i could do a coilover of some sort

i would think for a performance app i would choose traditional 4 link with coil overs and a air bag assist . for d/d the cantilever looks good just dont know how well it would hook .
 

Leadfoot

Needs Bigger Tires!
Dec 27, 2006
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www.matpa.org
I can't remember and don't wanna read this entire thread again, but can you or do you not block the rear suspension solid?


C-ya

Around here for Pulling, you can block solid. The only thing a 4 link will do for you is give you built in traction bars and the ability to adjust pinion angle if desired. The 4 Link would be the cats azz though for the strip if setup correctly. Done right (which knowing Tim he will), it will be the perfect setup for anything he decides to do with it (tow, pull, race, drive, etc).
 

juddski88

Freedom Diesel
Jul 1, 2008
4,655
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Chesterfield, Mass.
for bigger bushed links, do a little digging on pirate4x4.com You should be able to find something stout enough that fits the bill for you. If I get a chance, I'll look as well because I know I've seen them somewhere.


I can't remember and don't wanna read this entire thread again, but can you or do you not block the rear suspension solid?


C-ya

Around here for Pulling, you can block solid. The only thing a 4 link will do for you is give you built in traction bars and the ability to adjust pinion angle if desired. The 4 Link would be the cats azz though for the strip if setup correctly. Done right (which knowing Tim he will), it will be the perfect setup for anything he decides to do with it (tow, pull, race, drive, etc).

Mitch, i would block solid when pulling, if i pull it. otherwise, i would only be using this for DD/towing/drag racing.
Chris, i'm still in the dark on the changing of pinion angle. Why would this be beneficial, unless i am constantly changing ride height? it seems that having everything lined up would be the most beneficial.
 

TrentNell

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Jul 7, 2008
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Mitch, i would block solid when pulling, if i pull it. otherwise, i would only be using this for DD/towing/drag racing.
Chris, i'm still in the dark on the changing of pinion angle. Why would this be beneficial, unless i am constantly changing ride height? it seems that having everything lined up would be the most beneficial.

could be refering to pinion preload , dont ask to explain how this changes traction all i know is it does :rofl:
 

Leadfoot

Needs Bigger Tires!
Dec 27, 2006
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could be refering to pinion preload , dont ask to explain how this changes traction all i know is it does :rofl:

:yup:

Also, if everthing (both yokes and driveshaft) were inline (no angle) that is actually a bad thing as the rollers in the u-joints will not move (or at least not and appreciable amount) and will cause flat spots on the trunion.

For daily driving you want complimentary angles in the front and the rear of the driveshaft to cancel out vibrations, but in certain instances changing the pinion angle can change how a chassis reacts....(good or bad).
 

juddski88

Freedom Diesel
Jul 1, 2008
4,655
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Chesterfield, Mass.
:yup:

Also, if everthing (both yokes and driveshaft) were inline (no angle) that is actually a bad thing as the rollers in the u-joints will not move (or at least not and appreciable amount) and will cause flat spots on the trunion.ahh, ok.

For daily driving you want complimentary angles in the front and the rear of the driveshaft to cancel out vibrations, but in certain instances changing the pinion angle can change how a chassis reacts....(good or bad).wouldn't this only be present with leaf spring suspension?

hmmm, lots to think about. thanks for the help guys. I really want to do either this or the tranny before the season starts and i have to tow the fat truck around.:)
 

TrentNell

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here is a bit of info i found on pinion preload , i need to search instant center looking like this is the real key to proper set up for max traction .

Myth #1: The pinion angle somehow affects how much traction the car
will achieve.

Straight Scoop: No way. The pinion angle doesn't mean squat as far
as the rear suspension is concerned. Think about it: why would the
suspension care about u-joint angles? What determines the "hit" on
the rear tires and the rate and amount of weight transfer is the
intersect point of the upper and lower rear bars (control arms).
That's known as the "instant center" (IC), and combined with weight
distribution, spring rates, and shock valving is what affects
traction.

Myth #2: You increased the pinion angle and the result was increased
traction, so Myth #1 must be correct.

Straight Scoop: You haven't been listening. Pinion angle doesn't
affect traction. What happened is you shortened the length of the
upper bars and that changed the intersect point, moving the IC
farther forward. You also screwed up the pinion angle in the
process. If you want to change the length of the upper or lower
bars, or change their mounting points, that's fine. But after you're
done you've got to go back and check and properly reset the pinion
angle.

Myth #3: The garage floor is the correct reference point for
measuring the pinion angle.

Straight Scoop: You've got to be kidding, right? The garage floor
doesn't have anything to do with anything. What's important is the
drivetrain angle. It so happens that professionally built racecars
are constructed so that the crankshaft is parallel to the floor,
meaning that the transmission output shaft will also be parallel to
the floor. But this usually doesn't hold true for cars using a
factory chassis. In most of those cases the engine is tipped
rearward. Take a look under the hood of your Buick and you'll see
what I mean. The drivetrain angle is the reference point and is
considered to be zero.

How to Measure It: The best way to do this is with the car supported
on jackstands, with stands under the front control arms and rear axle
tubes, with the full weight of the car resting on the stands. Next,
it's best to remove the driveshaft. Using an angle finder (these are
available from Competition Engineering or at Sears Hardware stores--
they're a commonly used carpenters tool), measure across the surface
of the rear transmission seal vertically(see illustration 1). This
surface is perpendicular to the output shaft of the trans, so
subtract the measurement from 90 to get the drivetrain angle. Let's
say that the measurement is -2 degrees(pointed down). That is our
reference point. Look at illustration #3. The pinion angle is the
difference in the angle of the rearend to the angle of the
drivetrain. So, in order to have zero pinion angle, the rearend
would have to be tipped upward (pinion yoke pointing upward) 2
degrees. If our drivetrain angle measured -5 degrees, we'd have to
tip the rearend upward 5 degrees to have zero pinion angle. Get it?
Now turn the pinion yoke so that the u-joint cups are sideways, and
measure across one side of the pinion yoke vertically(see
illustration 1) where the u-joint strap connects. Again, this
surface is perpendicular to the pinion, so subtract the measurement
from 90 to get the rearend angle. compare this number to the
drivetrain angle to get the pinion angle. If the drivetrain angle
was -2 degrees(pointed down), and the rearend angle measured +1
degrees(pointed up), then the pinion angle would be -1 degree. If
the drivetrain angle had measured -2 degrees (pointed down) and the
rearend angle had measured -3 degrees (pointed down) then the pinion
angle would be -5 degrees. In my particular case, the drivetrain
angle measured -4 degrees, and the rearend angle measured -6 degrees,
resulting in a pinion angle of -10 degrees, a wasted tailshaft
bushing, and a slower than necessary racecar. The idea is to have
the pinion angle at zero with the racecar under power and going down
the track. To allow for suspension movement and loading, the pinion
angle should be at around -2 degrees for our cars.

Illustration 1

Illustration 2

Illustration 3



How to Adjust It: You can purchase adjustable upper or lower control
arms from a variety of sources, or you can weld washers to the
factory control arms and re-drill the pivot holes in a new location,
or you can cut and weld the factory control arms.

How important is all of this: Well, excessive pinion angle can bind
the u-joints up pretty good and rob quite a bit of horsepower. It's
not at all unusual for a car to pick up 2-3 tenths and as many mph
after getting this straightened out. Also, excessive pinion angle is
often the real culprit behind broken parts. Racers love to attribute
busted driveshafts, exploded tailshafts, and cracked bellhousing to
the raw torque and horsepower produced by their motors, when in fact
it's usually a problem with driveline geometry. It's definitely
worth checking before you break something expensive. See you in the
lanes!!
 

TrentNell

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Jul 7, 2008
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some really good info here

Horsepower and torque numbers are great for impressing your car buddies. Even rear-wheel dynos are fun, because big numbers at the rear wheels will inspire even the most jaded enthusiast. But the final arbiter isn't flywheel torque, rear-wheel horsepower, or even the number of solenoids under your hood. The ultimate deal is how well your car can apply all this power to the ground. If you want to create shock and awe, hook all that torque through the two small patches where the rear tires meet the road, and the dragstrip groupies will beat a path to your garage door.

Different Styles

When it comes to rear suspensions, there are many different ways to make it happen. We'll deal with solid, live-rear-axle applications going in a straight line for this story and leave the corner-turning tricks for another time. We'll specifically look at leaf springs, four-links, and torque-arms, which are the most popular systems for high-performance street machines.

Leaf Springs

Leaf springs are the simplest form of rear suspension since they both locate the rear axle and suspend vehicle weight. The idea dates back to a time just after the invention of the wheel. Leaf springs are both heavy and also prone to wrap-up under high torque loads, which wasn't a problem for our ancestors in Conestoga wagons. Spring wrap-up occurs when the leading end of the leaf spring bends sufficiently to bind the rear suspension, at which point it bounces the tire and wheel off the ground, causing wheelhop. This is an extremely violent torque reaction that can be easily cured with traction bars that stiffen the front spring section. Unfortunately, slapper traction bars also contribute to rear-suspension bind. The most popular leaf-spring traction devices are CalTracs or Competition Engineering's Slide-A-Link bars, which act as a lower control arm to prevent spring wrap-up while eliminating the bind.

Factory Four-Link

This design exchanges heavy leaf springs for much lighter and more compact coil springs. However, this requires control or trailing arms to connect the rear axle to the frame. Factory four-links use a pair of lower control arms matched with a pair of uppers that are angled outward. This angling of the upper arms locates the rear axle laterally to eliminate the need for a Panhard bar. This is the rear suspension used in all GM A-bodies like the Chevelle and also the Fox and SN-95 Mustangs. This rear suspension operates roughly similar to a drag race four-link, where the upper and lower control arms are parallel to the framerails. We'll get into more depth with the drag race four-link shortly.

Torque Arm

The torque-arm suspension is the latest factory version of rear suspension evolution. The torque arm replaces the two upper control arms and is used to accommodate the application of power through the rear axle and to locate the rear axle. This requires the help of a Panhard bar to locate the rear axle laterally. One advantage to eliminating the two upper control arms is gaining valuable space between the rear axle and the body.


The Application of Power

When power is applied to the pinion gear and into the ring gear of the rear axle, the pinion tries to climb the ring gear. When viewed from the front of the car, the clockwise twist of the pinion attempts to lift the right (passenger-side) rear tire off the ground and plant the left (driver-side) tire. This is the natural reaction of all rear axles to torque input. This also explains why drag racers place a certain amount of preload on the right rear tire to counteract this force. An example of this is the use of an airbag over the right rear axle that preloads the chassis to counteract this torque reaction.

At the same time that the axle is attempting to lift the right rear tire, the body is twisting in the opposite direction, which normally results in the body squatting over the right rear. All of this is the reaction to torque input. The more torque you apply or the more gear ratio you use to multiply the torque, the more twisting effort is applied to the chassis. Drag racers and suspension engineers have collaborated to create very specific ways to explain how all this happens and have also come up with ways to manage the power in a systematic fashion.

Instant Center

All vehicles have a specific point around which the entire car will balance called the center of gravity (CG). For most domestic front-engine, rear-drive cars, the CG is generally located forward of the mid-point of the car at around camshaft height off the ground. While all rear suspensions pivot around a given point, this is not necessarily the point at which the rear suspension applies power or lift. Suspension engineers call this lift point the instant center (IC). Different suspensions place this IC at different positions in the car. Because suspension components tend to shift as the body lifts or squats, this position is dynamic, meaning that it moves as the car pitches or rolls. One definition of IC is the unseen center of an arc created by the moving suspension links. The simplest instant center is a drag race ladder bar. The forward mounting point for the ladder bar where it hooks to the chassis also happens to be its instant center. With other rear-suspension designs, the instant center is an imaginary point in space.

Kevin Gertgen's Performance Trends has created a drag race four-link computer simulation program called 4 Link that offers pictures that tell the story much easier. If you look at the illustration, you'll notice a pair of dotted lines that extend from the lines drawn by the two upper control arms and the two lower control arms. The intersection point of those two lines is called the instant center. The 4 Link program allows you to reposition the IC by moving the mounting points of the upper and lower control arms. Also notice the dotted line that extends from the rear-tire contact point forward at an angle. This line intersects a point created by the intersection of the horizontal CG line with a vertical line drawn through the front spindle. This angled line is called the 100 percent antisquat line, or sometimes called the neutral line.

By changing the location of the upper and lower four-link bars, you can move the IC location either above, directly on, or below that 100 percent antisquat line. When the IC is positioned below that 100 percent antisquat line, the rear of the car will squat on acceleration and "hit" the tires relatively softly. When the IC is positioned above the 100 percent antisquat line, the rear of the car will tend to rise on acceleration and "hit" the tires harder. Obviously, if the IC is placed directly on the 100 percent line, the rear will remain neutral.

This explanation holds true for all rear-drive cars, but there is plenty of confusion around the location of the instant center with different suspension systems. For example, with leaf-spring cars, the IC is the front spring eyes, but with ladder bars, the IC is the front pivot point. Factory four-link cars are determined exactly the same way as drag race four-link systems. If you extend imaginary lines forward on a factory four-link rear suspension, the IC generally falls in front of the car, well below the 100 percent antisquat line. This is why all factory four-link cars squat on acceleration. By installing the Lakewood anti-hop bars (for example), this kit raises the rear locating point of the upper control arms roughly 2 inches. This shortens the IC length and also places it above the 100 percent antisquat line, which now helps plant the rear tires.

Conclusion

So, what have we learned here? The main thing to take away from this rear suspension discussion is that there's more to improving traction than just dumping 50 pounds of ballast in the trunk. You can use specific suspension components to help you create optimal traction, but only if you understand how all these components work. This has been a primer intended to introduce you to the ideas around rear suspension science. There are dozens of other variables like weight distribution, engine torque, shock tuning, tire pressures, and of dozens more that contribute to improving traction. That's why this is as much art as it is science. But when you get it to work for you, your car will make you out to be a low-e.t. hero.
 
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Leadfoot

Needs Bigger Tires!
Dec 27, 2006
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Western MA
www.matpa.org
Good information

I know that changing pinion angle on leaf sprung vehicles does affect launch/traction, but from the looks of the information you posted, it's more a side effect or by-product of a change in IC. The issue is IC is probably alot different when pulling with 45,000lbs behind you vs. drag racing so you really can't "figure it out in the garage". It is a trial by error :p situation (much like the ideal air pressure).
 

SmokeShow

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Nov 30, 2006
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$Smokin_Duradog$

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Ive been thinking of straight axleing my Dmax and building a Triangulated 4-Link setup for it in the rear. Here is what I think would be a great link for parts and info if you decide to go the 4-Link route.

http://www.powerblocktv.com/site3/index.php/xtreme4x4-episodes?ep_num=XT2009-07&ep_sea=0901

From what they explain in this episode has everything to do with what you guys are talking about as far as "IC". I dont use my truck for sled pullin anymore it breaks to many parts. In any case a 4-Link setup built for pulling I would have to assume would want cause as much down force to be applied to the front of the truck as you guys have already said. Hanging weights is always a tremendous help as well. As far Ive always been told and seen on the track air bags are not the way to go. Ive included a link also with a Dmax that the guys that built BigFoot built! I would like to run Dual coil overs on ea corner of the truck with Tri-4Link like this but not to this extreme:) LOL:coal:

http://www.bigfoot4x4.com/news08.html#Nov03

This isn't a Triangulated 4 Link system but I would like to run 8 coil overs like this! I hope the first link gives you some good ideas of 4-Link parts. You can get rebuild able ball bearing ends and D.O.M. tubing. Should be everything you need to build a very trick long lasting setup. Keep me posted with this project I would like to see how it turns out!
 

juddski88

Freedom Diesel
Jul 1, 2008
4,655
120
63
Chesterfield, Mass.
so i am about to start this project..i am going to start taking measurements this week hopefully, i am just working on using the EXCEL file Mitch included to find my proper angles...however i am wondering if i should wait until i get my front suspension situated or if i should just have frame mounting brackets that allow for multiple positions to mount the bars for angle changes and such. i am currently thinking a triangulated design would be best for stability and keep weight down. the ends will be poly-bushed, i will most likely be using the Firestone F9000 sleeve bags but i am not sure on the Coilovers vs. a conventional shock. i am thinking i need something other than air for rebound soo...

any input is welcome even if it to tell me the stock suspension works great :D

my goal is to be able to tow and drag race and cut 1.6 60ft's on proxes